Overcoming chronic indecision to make progress

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 Transcript 

00:00:00 

We acknowledge the Yuggera and Kaurna nations as traditional custodians of the land on which we work, live and learn, and they’re continuing connection with the land waters and community. 

00:00:10 

We pay our respects to them and their elders past and present. 

00:00:13 

All content related to this program is for general informational purposes only and contains stories and discussions around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. 

00:00:22 

If you were concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice and support. 

00:00:27 

More details are contained in our show notes. 

00:00:30 

Thanks for your order. 

00:00:30 

Indecisive just recapping, it’s one super happy burger and a shake is that. 

00:00:34 

Chicken or beef today. 

00:00:35 

I’m a beef. 

00:00:36 

Would you like? 

00:00:37 

A double beef Patty for next role today. 

00:00:38 

Yes, but you have a double page, Patti, thanks. 

00:00:41 

How would you like your beef cooked? 

00:00:42 

Rare, medium or well done. 

00:00:43 

Nothing of that in the plight is the medium 2 Peach. 

00:00:46 

Can you hold on to be safe? 

00:00:47 

Yeah, well done. 

00:00:48 

Would you like any extra cells or cheeseburger today? 

00:00:50 

American shadow and a slice of beetroot. 

00:00:53 

On top of the normal salad. 

00:00:54 

Would you like it, honey? 

00:00:56 

Ooh onion. 

00:00:56 

No no, no cooked, cooked, sorry cut. 

00:01:00 

Cooked onion and. 

00:01:01 

Sauce yes please. 

00:01:02 

What source would you like from a dozen special flavor selection? 

00:01:05 

Doesn’t twelve sources and what’s the most popular? 

00:01:08 

I don’t know, sorry this week I need. 

00:01:10 

To waste nice. 

00:01:10 

Oh good, I’ll go. 

00:01:11 

With tomato, thanks. 

00:01:12 

OK, so that’s one super happy beef burger. 

00:01:14 

Double Patty. 

00:01:15 

Well done with cooked onion, beetroot, American cheddar and tomato sauce and a shake. 

00:01:19 

Did you wanna add? 

00:01:19 

Some fries for a. 

00:01:20 

Dollar right I. 

00:01:21 

I think we’re having roast tonight, but I do like my fries. 

00:01:25 

So let’s add the fries. 

00:01:26 

Small, medium or large. 

00:01:28 

Do you know how many potatoes are? 

00:01:29 

Hiring a lot. 

00:01:29 

So much. 

00:01:30 

No, no, I’m just wondering if you know. 

00:01:31 

How many potatoes were in a large ’cause? 

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I don’t want to go over my potato. 

00:01:34 

Quota for dinner tonight? 

00:01:35 

I don’t know. 

00:01:35 

Sorry small Redeemer large. 

00:01:38 

Let’s go with Medium, I mean. 

00:01:40 

SMS gone into rights AM. 

00:01:41 

I right that’s one. 

00:01:42 

Super Happy Beef Burger double Patty. 

00:01:43 

Well done with comp onion, beetroot and American cheddar and tomato sauce at a shake and medium fries. 

00:01:48 

Would you like fries? 

00:01:49 

Loaded light? 

00:01:49 

Loaded size what are the? 

00:01:51 

Options cheesy bacon chili cheese Buffalo chicken barbecue pork willborn eyes. 

00:01:55 

So it’s little choice. 

00:01:58 

Haven’t chicken tonight, so that’s out. 

00:02:00 

And Balinese will just be more beef so. 

00:02:03 

I don’t think. 

00:02:04 

I need more meat, so chili cheese. 

00:02:05 

But cheesy bacon is nice. 

00:02:07 

Cheesy bacon loaded fries then. 

00:02:09 

Actually make it chilly chase. 

00:02:10 

That’s 1,000,000. 

00:02:11 

Two cheeseburger fries. 

00:02:12 

Do you like your chili? 

00:02:13 

Mild, medium or hot. 

00:02:14 

I got the snake. 

00:02:17 

I could go for some pain. 

00:02:18 

Last time I. 

00:02:18 

Did that. 

00:02:19 

I couldn’t really taste anything ’cause. 

00:02:20 

Of the chili. 

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Mild thanks. 

00:02:23 

That’s a super heavy burger double Patty. 

00:02:25 

Well done with American cheddar cooked onion and beef treatment. 

00:02:27 

Spider source medium loaded fries with mild chili cheese and a shake. 

00:02:30 

Was there anything else today? 

00:02:31 

What size shape did I order? 

00:02:31 

Shake the. 

00:02:33 

That’s a small chocolate shake. 

00:02:34 

Can I change that to a medium vanilla shake instead please? 

00:02:38 

Would you like to load you banana shake? 

00:02:40 

Download it. 

00:02:42 

What can I load it with? 

00:02:44 

What Eminem’s Orioles Flake was killed? 

00:02:47 

How much extra does it cost? 

00:02:49 

They charge special the month. 

00:02:50 

It’s gonna add more to. 

00:02:51 

Run for an extra. 

00:02:52 

Double you can add two in world. 

00:02:53 

OK, I’m going to add in meetings and. 

00:02:55 

Schedule things. 

00:02:55 

OK, so that’s a super happy burger double Patty. 

00:02:58 

Well done with American cheddar, cooked onion and beetroot tomato sauce with medium level fries with my chili cheese and medium vanilla loaded shake with. 

00:03:05 

M&M’s and Skittles. 

00:03:06 

I I don’t think skills are going to go with the. 

00:03:08 

Admins, can I? 

00:03:09 

Change that to. 

00:03:09 

Oreos actually can. 

00:03:10 

Yeah, sure. 

00:03:11 

I have the Skittles on? 

00:03:12 

The site no. 

00:03:12 

Is there any audience? 

00:03:13 

If I can add. 

00:03:14 

Two or more. 

00:03:15 

Let’s go with M. 

00:03:15 

And M’s. 

00:03:15 

And Oreos in shake. 

00:03:16 

And the Skittles. 

00:03:18 

Right, so that’s a super happy burger. 

00:03:21 

Double Patty. 

00:03:21 

Well done with American. 

00:03:22 

Share that cooked onion beetroot tomato sauce with medium loaded fries with mild chili cheese and millions were loaded. 

00:03:28 

Shake with M&M’s and Oreos. 

00:03:29 

And Skittles on. 

00:03:30 

The side is there anything else you would like? 

00:03:33 

I think that’s all, thanks. 

00:03:34 

That’s $14.50 place without. 

00:03:36 

The cash or card, sorry now. 

00:03:37 

You take diners, cut scenes dogs into our restaurant. 

00:03:38 

Right? 

00:03:40 

These are most accounts are paying by card today. 

00:03:42 

I think I’ve got the cash. 

00:03:44 

1450 yeah yeah. 

00:03:45 

Yes 1450 please. 

00:03:47 

I’ve only got 1440 in cash, will you? 

00:03:49 

Take that story. 

00:03:50 

We’ll need the full 1450 please. Thank you. 

00:03:51 

I can’t use my card then. 

00:03:53 

Please help with swiping you. 

00:03:54 

Ready hang on? Can I pay 1440 in cash and the last $0.10 on the card? 

00:03:58 

There’s a minimum transaction fee $0.50 for anything under 10. 

00:04:01 

Dollars is that OK? 

00:04:02 

I put 10 on. 

00:04:03 

The card on the balance in cash. 

00:04:05 

It’s 450 balance temples. Wrapping you ready. Would you like? 

00:04:08 

A receipt only. 

00:04:09 

Oh no. 

00:04:09 

Thanks, I mean unless you can send. 

00:04:10 

It to my. 

00:04:11 

Phone I don’t like wasting food. 

00:04:12 

We don’t have that option, sorry. 

00:04:14 

Hey bro dies then yes please I’ll take the receipt. 

00:04:17 

Can you also throw in some extra napkins? 

00:04:20 

I’ll have what she’s having, no. 

00:04:21 

Don’t get me started about toothpaste choice paralysis. 

00:04:24 

How is it that some decisions are so clear and easy to make when others are fraught with second guesses? 

00:04:30 

Let’s get to the bottom of it, hang. 

00:04:31 

Because this is re frame of mind. 

00:04:35 

Where we deep dive into discussions about mental health during by some of Australia’s leading minds to expand our understanding of the world and ourselves. 

00:04:43 

Because we don’t exist in. 

00:04:44 

A vacuum and the way we talk about mental health shouldn’t either. 

00:04:47 

With your hosts and in the way and Louise Pool. 

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And last time on re frame of mind we spoke to New Zealand professional Ultra Marathon runner and endurance athlete. 

00:04:55 

Lisa Tomidy, who made the biggest decision of her life when she dropped everything to nurse her mother back to full health in the face of a very discouraging diagnosis. 

00:05:04 

Five years ago, my mum had a massive aneurysm. 

00:05:07 

So she was left at the age of 74, were fighting for a life. For starters, they didn’t think she would survive. When she did, she was in and out of coma for a number of weeks. 

00:05:15 

And when she did survive and come out the other end of the coma, she had massive brain damage. 

00:05:21 

And hardly any higher function mentally, so she had. 

00:05:23 

No control over. 

00:05:24 

Their body or anything. 

00:05:25 

Now I’m suddenly confronted, you know, I’ve been up until that point. 

00:05:29 

This, you know. 

00:05:29 

Selfish, goal orientated athlete mum was always supporting me and you know looking out for me and helping me as running my businesses and so on, but I was very much I could do. 

00:05:40 

What I wanted and then this situation happened and we were left. 

00:05:45 

You know, being told that she would never do anything again, that the brain damage was so massive she would never have any quality of life or do anything and to put her in an institution. 

00:05:53 

And I was just like no, that’s not happening and so at that point. 

00:05:56 

I had to. 

00:05:56 

Stop training and running obviously and doing long. 

00:06:00 

Stuff I still looked after myself, self care wise, but I put all of my energy’s in focus into her rehabilitation. And even though I was told there was my hope and there is no way forward and just forget it, make it comfortable. 

00:06:13 

When I said, why don’t do? 

00:06:14 

Comfortable for start. 

00:06:15 

And if that’s the. 

00:06:17 

Option, then I’d rather go down fighting if I’m going to go down. 

00:06:21 

Lisa told us that this experience changed her relationship with decision making. 

00:06:25 

There’s just about listening to your intuition, which you know I. 

00:06:30 

I tend to believe now comes from somewhere else rather than just from our own mind, or sometimes at least there. 

00:06:36 

You know we can tap into a power if you like. 

00:06:39 

That can guide us. 

00:06:41 

I don’t know that for a fact. 

00:06:42 

But that’s how I feel at the moment, so. 

00:06:44 

I’m trying to sit now. 

00:06:45 

When I have a big decision to make, I’m trying to just sit with it and sort of see where my gut is telling me is the right direction to go, and you know the gut being whether it’s my intuition or whether that’s coming from a higher place is helping me make better good decisions. 

00:07:01 

You know, like sometimes I’ve in the past where I’ve just gone against what my guts telling me. 

00:07:05 

’cause I think. 

00:07:06 

This is a great idea and. 

00:07:07 

Then usually I fall on my face when I do that because there’s something that. 

00:07:11 

I haven’t picked up on. 

00:07:12 

And I’m glad that. 

00:07:14 

Our listeners have made the decision to stick with us so far in the podcast, especially if they start at episode one, ’cause we’re now at 25 OO. 

00:07:21 

That’s like a Silver Jubilee in queen terms. 

00:07:27 

Mind you have to be 25 years, but anyway, and I’m glad as well. Look, we made the decision to make the series because you know that really was. 

00:07:33 

An easy one, after all, if only all decisions were that easy, hey. 

00:07:36 

I know right? 

00:07:37 

I mean, it’s definitely been easier for me to decide to make a podcast than it ever will be to. 

00:07:42 

Order Uber eats the force. 

00:07:44 

You know what it’s like? 

00:07:45 

I mean you can. 

00:07:46 

Find the restaurant. 

00:07:47 

And then you will negotiate with. 

00:07:49 

Will be having dinner with. 

00:07:50 

OK, let’s have this and not this or something else. 

00:07:52 

And then there’s little every times and then you gotta pick the food and then you want to customize your source. 

00:07:57 

And by the time you. 

00:07:58 

Get to the payment you look. 

00:08:00 

There you go. 

00:08:00 

Oh my God, is it? 

00:08:01 

Really worth it. Delivery charge. 

00:08:07 

Really, how many times then do you just give up and moreover? 

00:08:12 

You just close the up down and go by there. 

00:08:13 

I’m going to cook something myself and then 30 minutes later you haven’t cooked something for yourself in. 

00:08:17 

Your hungrier and. 

00:08:18 

Any hungrier. 

00:08:20 

Yeah, I know. 

00:08:21 

But then, like. 

00:08:21 

That brings into question about the supermarket. 

00:08:24 

So many options on the toothpaste, Louise. 

00:08:26 

Yeah Oh my God oh. 

00:08:29 

Don’t get me started on the toothpaste. 

00:08:33 

No, I I think I’m going to get started on the toothpaste, right? 

00:08:35 

You go to the toothpaste I’ll, I don’t know, I feel like in my utopian memory. 

00:08:38 

Nostalgic memory. 

00:08:39 

It just used to be a tiny little section and now it is almost a whole Isle of toothpaste and you know what do you pick? 

00:08:47 

There’s so many options with whitening with bacterial control with fresh breath with charcoal. 

00:08:51 

With advanced fresh breath. 

00:08:52 

Events whitening with tighter control with bootstrap with gum health with advanced MIC broke dumb total white and charcoal extract. 

00:08:59 

Triple stripe enamel protection. 

00:09:01 

Complete defence, sensitive freshness, blast 3D. What do you choose? 

00:09:05 

I think you forgot the baking soda and I’m still. 

00:09:07 

With that, and is that the one with. 

00:09:09 

24 hour protection. 

00:09:10 

Or 48. 

00:09:11 

You know why can’t they make them all in one just one toothpaste that does? 

00:09:15 

All those ******* things. 

00:09:16 

I mean, I remember the good old days when I was a kid and then used to work for Colgate Palmolive. 

00:09:20 

And just to. 

00:09:20 

Bring the toothpaste time before I even want to think about choosing. 

00:09:23 

But these things take. 

00:09:24 

Up half an. 

00:09:25 

Hour on the supermarket. 

00:09:26 

Yeah, well I find honestly supermarket really. 

00:09:28 

Overwhelming, sometimes it’s showing you’re hungry when I’m hungry. 

00:09:32 

I just wait everything. 

00:09:33 

And yet you still managed to come home with nothing. 

00:09:35 

Why not roll forward nothing? 

00:09:35 

This is. 

00:09:36 

Usually spend 100 bucks when you’re hungry. 

00:09:38 

Now then, we you know. 

00:09:40 

We really make a lot of decisions every day when you stop and think about it, it’s overwhelming toothpaste and burgers alone, let alone the big stuff. 

00:09:47 

I know, right? 

00:09:48 

And I suppose it kind of begs the question. 

00:09:51 

What stops us from making some of those decisions? 

00:09:54 

Is it through a failure or is it making the wrong choice? 

00:09:57 

Or is it just not having collected enough data? 

00:10:00 

There were some decisions. 

00:10:01 

Easier than others. 

00:10:01 

All the toothpaste right? 

00:10:03 

Got plenty of data, but I could certainly be making the wrong choice. 

00:10:07 

I mean if I don’t get them with baking soda, the world might be over. 

00:10:10 

Time will tell, Tik T.O.K. 

00:10:11 

So we need some help working this out and we’ve enlisted Scientia Professor Joe Fergus am from the University of New South Wales who is an expert on decision making. 

00:10:21 

Yeah, if you’ve. 

00:10:22 

Ever picked up a psychology textbook? 

00:10:23 

There’s a good chance Joe for Ghost Rider chapter in. 

00:10:27 

Google Scholar says he’s been cited thirty 4293 times. 

00:10:33 

Massive, so you probably referenced in your assignment as well at some point, and we’ve certainly given him plenty of footnotes in this series so far. 

00:10:41 

Yet Joe was published 27 books, over 200 articles and book chapters, so we asked him to introduce his own accolades. 

00:10:49 

I am CNT a professor at the University of New South Wales. 

00:10:54 

I am ever published experimental cognitive social psychologists. 

00:11:00 

I’ve got an order of Australia for my efforts and I don’t know what else I’ve got all sorts of prizes and stuff, but you may not. 

00:11:09 

Want to list all of those? 

00:11:11 

We would like to see your. 

00:11:12 

Trophy Room what’s going on there? 

00:11:14 

I I don’t have a job and I have a few things on my on my wall. 

00:11:18 

I’ve got the distinguished Scientific Contribution award from the Australian Psychological Society. 

00:11:25 

The Alexander from Humboldt Prize from Germany. 

00:11:29 

I had a Rockefeller. 

00:11:31 

A scholarship you know stuff like that, but you don’t want to know that really. 

00:11:36 

You originally is much better than ours. 

00:11:38 

About you know it takes time and I’m getting quite old. 

00:11:43 

And Joe told us about the nature of decision making. 

00:11:46 

Not what decisions are the same. 

00:11:48 

There are decisions where you have a fair amount of control and there are decisions where a lot of the control is outside your power and there are decisions which are rationally foreseeable. 

00:12:00 

In other words, you can calculate the pluses and their minuses as best as you can, and many where you are dealing with. 

00:12:06 

Intrinsic uncertainty, so there is no single good answer. 

00:12:11 

I suppose the the first step would be to try to analyze what sort of decision disease? 

00:12:18 

How much of a control I have over this? 

00:12:21 

How much information I have the problem very often is when you thinking about decisions for the future that we are not very good in knowing what would really make us happy. 

00:12:32 

You know when you buy a car, how do you make a decision? 

00:12:35 

How do you know whether having. 

00:12:38 

That particular gizmo is going to be more important to you than some other gives more. 

00:12:43 

You just don’t know and so very often you deal with a great deal of uncertainty, and then that is the case. 

00:12:49 

Ah, that’s also important in decisions you have to recognize that there is nothing more you can do, so just choose one or the other and go with it. 

00:12:58 

So we. 

00:12:59 

Really, just typically lazy as thinkers as human beings and just seek what serves our own beliefs. 

00:13:06 

I’m just thinking specifically again around the the topic of politics and leaders and how. 

00:13:12 

They will often get up into the media with a brief statement of some sort, but their statement is completely incongruent with their actions and yet people don’t tend to look beyond the words they say. 

00:13:24 

Absolutely, between Trump is a good example. 

00:13:27 

I think people calculate a thousands of perhaps 10s of thousands of untruth that he’s spoken, but it didn’t seem to bother anybody, so it’s it’s absolutely true. 

00:13:37 

Another feature of human cognition is that we rely on shortcuts and heuristics almost all the time. 

00:13:45 

Daniel Kahneman, who is a Nobel Prize winning social psychologist? 

00:13:49 

He got his Nobel Prize in economics by studying judgments and decision making. 

00:13:54 

Has written an excellent book on thinking fast. 

00:13:57 

And slow, and he makes the point that thinking fast, jumping to conclusions, not evaluating the evidence, making mental shortcuts, is the four back technique for human thinking. 

00:14:10 

So absolutely, the idea of rationally weighing up and examining the average. 

00:14:15 

Dance requires extra motivation, extra effort, extra time, and so most of the time most people aren’t really doing that. 

00:14:24 

It can be learned, and it can be taught, but it’s effortful and we are essentially cognitively needs. 

00:14:32 

See, This is why we started calling them Joe bombs because he drops these home truths on us. 

00:14:38 

I’m definitely feeling called out about being cognitively lazy. 

00:14:43 

And he’s right. 

00:14:44 

Yeah, it’s a bit. 

00:14:45 

Like a carpet. 

00:14:46 

Bomb going off emotionally, sometimes with Joey, but where do the toothpaste and the Super happy burger with fries sit on the importance of decision making? 

00:14:54 

I think you’ll find that’s a super happy burger. 

00:14:56 

Double Patty. 

00:14:56 

Well done with American cheddar, cooked onion and beetroot tomato sauce, medium loaded fries with mild chili cheese, vanilla, medium loaded, shake with Eminem. 

00:15:03 

And Oreos and Skittles on the side actually. 

00:15:05 

On the side, I’m surprised you even go with both of the other options on the side. 

00:15:10 

Since she’s playing the bowler but anyway. 

00:15:12 

Hey look. 

00:15:13 

Truth be told, we probably created a lot of mental shortcuts around choices like those because carefully considering every decision is exhausting and it’s overwhelming. 

00:15:22 

Yeah, and we. 

00:15:23 

Didn’t consciously create most of those shortcuts, so I wonder now where else we’ve built shortcuts into our thoughts and behaviors that we’re not consciously aware of. 

00:15:31 

So can we talk about the. 

00:15:33 

I’m ******* done. 

00:15:37 

Yes, the I can’t do this anymore moment the. 

00:15:40 

I I just I just just fast. 

00:15:41 

This bra doesn’t. 

00:15:41 

Fit and I’m not going to wear it anymore. 

00:15:44 

Big moment, yeah, we discussed this a couple of episodes ago. 

00:15:48 

It’s windows circumstances or situations feelings that you’re living kind of reaches that tipping point where you have no choice but to choose to change. 

00:15:57 

You kind of forced into it to make an intentional decision. 

00:16:00 

Because all those other times that we didn’t actually make a decision was actually choosing not to make a decision whether we wanted to admit that or not. 

00:16:06 

Yeah, and the IFD you’re ********* done. 

00:16:09 

Well, I FD you’ve oh I love it I love. 

00:16:11 

I FD. 

00:16:13 

It we’re gonna. 

00:16:13 

Yeah so. 

00:16:14 

This is how we get the the Jenn is is the one of the now. 

00:16:17 

#ifd 

00:16:18 

What’s the new generation? 

00:16:20 

Oh, FCK noise. 

00:16:21 

So I think they’re climbing thick and fast now. 

00:16:21 

Then the gingins it’s. 

00:16:24 

I think the world is generation alpha now. 

00:16:26 

We’ll go with the babies I think. 

00:16:27 

Are they? 

00:16:27 

I don’t know, I don’t know and then like Gen Y used to be generally about how the millennials they. 

00:16:28 

This is how we get the tick. 

00:16:29 

Tock kids with the FDA is. 

00:16:32 

Rebranded themselves, but. 

00:16:33 

Yeah no, no. 

00:16:33 

Of course they did, but anyway, I know. 

00:16:34 

Well, I’m a millennial. 

00:16:36 

By year 

00:16:39 

But you gotta take it, I’m gonna take it. 

00:16:41 

I will take it. 

00:16:41 

Millennials are old now, so it’s not even cool anymore. 

00:16:43 

I am Janet Jackson. 

00:16:45 

Proud going to wear that with pride anyway. 

00:16:47 

Gen XIFD. 

00:16:49 

So that IFD feeling 

00:16:52 

It’s actually brought out of deciding to move away from something or run away from something rather than move towards it. 

00:16:57 

Yeah, look, I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately because of those episodes. 

00:17:01 

Words a few few weeks ago. 

00:17:03 

Funny how that happens. 

00:17:04 

I’m having an episode, Oh my God, another episode. 

00:17:06 

I’m having it. 

00:17:07 

I’m having an episode ending episode, but like it’s really made me animals. 

00:17:11 

A lot of those past experiences ’cause I always thought that I found it easy to make those big life decisions. 

00:17:16 

You know I’ve moved to heads of different places. 

00:17:18 

Should we do? 

00:17:18 

The list should do this OK? 

00:17:19 

Come on, let’s be like Lucky star and list all cities. 

00:17:22 

Louise has been too. 

00:17:22 

I’ve been everywhere, man, I’ve been everywhere. 

00:17:25 

Yeah, you breathe it in and. 

00:17:27 

Uh, yeah dude. 

00:17:28 

Actually I didn’t breathe the. 

00:17:29 

What’s the what’s the NT desert? The one that goes? 

00:17:32 

Geography is never been my strong point. 

00:17:34 

There’s a visit, though. 

00:17:34 

Let’s just. 

00:17:35 

There’s a. 

00:17:35 

Desert in the middle. 

00:17:36 

Let’s just call other dirty deserts. 

00:17:37 

I’ve breathed The Dirty desert air man. 

00:17:41 

00:17:44 

I’ve been in Brisbane. 

00:17:45 

Booga Ballarat camera. 

00:17:47 

You don’t have to sing, please don’t. 

00:17:50 

Environ Newcastle Muscle both Darwin, Ipswich and Brisbane I feeling everywhere. 

00:17:57 

You’ve lived everywhere I’ve. 

00:17:58 

Lived everywhere then. 

00:17:58 

You’ve lived, you’ve taken your suitcase. 

00:18:01 

You’ve taken your clothes you’re taking you’re taking your cats. 

00:18:04 

You know the. 

00:18:05 

The gym, the gym headers aren’t going to get that song reference either. 

00:18:09 

So nuts. 

00:18:09 

Then all, sorry, Jane said. 

00:18:11 

We just lost a whole. 

00:18:13 

That’s how you cut off. 

00:18:14 

An audience gone point is not that I Can’t Sing, it’s that those big decisions of moving. 

00:18:20 

You know my life from one city to another. 

00:18:22 

For jobs they felt easy. 

00:18:24 

They they felt like I was making a gut decision that actually the feeling that I had was this overwhelming. 

00:18:30 

This is what I. 

00:18:31 

Have to do. 

00:18:32 

Like real clear moment of clarity. 

00:18:34 

To make that big decision. 

00:18:36 

Spend very little time. 

00:18:37 

Thinking of the consequences. 

00:18:39 

00:18:42 

Consequences are ways of packing up your whole life constantly in moving into state, huh? 

00:18:46 

Money and lack of support. 

00:18:48 

Lack of friends, loneliness, isolation, money. 

00:18:51 

Again it is expensive to move, even if you’re going 3 streets down the. 

00:18:54 

It is, yeah it is. 

00:18:56 

You’re running into thousands automatically, but you always kind of had the sense. 

00:19:00 

That things would. 

00:19:00 

Workout yeah, oh, I thought I did. 

00:19:04 

He said well though I’m looking at my past experiences through this new lens. 

00:19:08 

I’m wondering if maybe I made just searching. 

00:19:11 

Quicker without thinking about them dreamer. 

00:19:15 

Close your eyes. 

00:19:15 

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah move, move, move. 

00:19:17 

And maybe if I actually was running away from things instead of running two things. 

00:19:23 

I I say is. 

00:19:25 

This cycle just couch time. 

00:19:26 

Do I need to pull out my my. 

00:19:28 

Notebook and pen. 

00:19:29 

I hope you take the Medicare rebate. 

00:19:31 

I’ve got no money after moving that many cities. 

00:19:33 

Look, I can certainly take your Medicare card, but I can’t promise. 

00:19:38 

Yeah, so well, I think those. 

00:19:39 

Big decisions sometimes felt. 

00:19:41 

Really easy and quick because I was went Yep. 

00:19:44 

Like a big thing. 

00:19:44 

Done, the flip side is like other decisions have really been paralyzing, particularly the emotional ones you know, hanging onto relationships, friendships longer than I should have. 

00:19:55 

I feel like I’ve allowed myself to be taken advantage of by people and situations. 

00:19:59 

Because maybe I haven’t been. 

00:20:00 

Able to make a decision to stop it like like sunk cost fallacy from last episode. 

00:20:01 

Yeah right OK. 

00:20:05 

Ghost, phallus. 

00:20:08 

We come up with. 

00:20:10 

All of the shiny new terms so. 

00:20:11 

You don’t have to. 

00:20:12 

I tell you that’s going to catch on with Gen Z. 

00:20:14 

We might have lost the with Lucky Star, but we’ll get him back with sunk cost fallacy, it’s. 

00:20:18 

00:20:19 

The old SCP. 

00:20:20 

It’s a sleepy. 

00:20:22 

So it’s weird that those. 

00:20:24 

Big decisions felt easy and expansive, but the ones that were around me. 

00:20:29 

Options that were probably more important for me to. 

00:20:31 

Make they lead to paralysis almost. 

00:20:34 

Like being in. 

00:20:35 

The idle supermarket with the toothpaste again. 

00:20:37 

Are not the toothpaste again? 

00:20:39 

So I guess something that you’ve been working on. 

00:20:41 

Though in our journey. 

00:20:43 

With this podcast, as well as untangling your personal identity from your professional one. 

00:20:47 

So how does conscious decision making, planning to that do you think? 

00:20:51 

Well, you know this is the first time I’ve lived in the city and actually the first time I’ve stayed in the. 

00:20:55 

City after I’ve left a job, normally it. 

00:20:57 

It’s 20 years of my media life. 

00:21:00 

When I’ve left a job, I’ve left the C as well or yeah, so the hot so it’s not just change a job, it’s just ripped my whole life. 

00:21:02 

Packed the whole thing up and gone. 

00:21:08 

Burn it all down, start again. 

00:21:10 

Chuck it onto the gypsy cart and move on. 

00:21:12 

Yeah, so it’s actually been really tough to make those conscious decisions that actually separate my identity as a person from my identity as an employee from as a as a job as a career. 

00:21:25 

They’ve all been so closely linked I suppose, hey. 

00:21:28 

Like have I just been on autopilot? 

00:21:30 

My whole life. 

00:21:31 

Well, I don’t know I think. 

00:21:32 

You know, as we’ve mentioned briefly so far, we do kind of start to make decisions. 

00:21:37 

Automatically, but it’s interesting that you say that you know things have kind of compacted along the way so that you talk about untangling the parts of yourself that are professional from the parts that are personal now and for the longest time that was all bundled up together because your social life was an extension of your career. 

00:21:57 

I just realized. 

00:21:58 

Something Joe focus is going to be proud. 

00:22:00 

But all those I. 

00:22:00 

Initial one. 

00:22:01 

Made all those shortcuts between all those things unconsciously. 

00:22:06 

Maybe to make things easier for me. 

00:22:08 

Setting up a system where you know if I leave a job, then I leave my entire world behind and don’t ever have to address anything around anything personal or something like that. 

00:22:18 

It’s it’s. 

00:22:19 

It’s just a it’s a shortcut. 

00:22:20 

To coping. 

00:22:21 

Well, it is. 

00:22:22 

I suppose if your contractual arrangements included you’ll have a boyfriend for the duration of your stay in this league. 

00:22:29 

Of which will solve for when you move away. 

00:22:32 

Been a very handy shortcut to me. 

00:22:34 

OK, well it never. 

00:22:35 

That was never in the contract. 

00:22:37 

It’s never that tiny, though, is it? 

00:22:37 

Come join. 

00:22:38 

No relationships though. 

00:22:41 

Let’s let’s talk relationships. 

00:22:44 

OK, my lines open it. 

00:22:45 

What about? 

00:22:46 

What about you? 

00:22:47 

Doctor loves how? 

00:22:48 

Many relationships have. 

00:22:50 

Held onto for the fear of making a decision. 

00:22:51 

Have I told you about my family? 

00:22:55 

Many, many times throughout the podcast. 

00:22:58 

Well, you know what decisions that I’ve made when I was young in life tended to be focused. 

00:23:04 

A lot around my relationship to my family and why. 

00:23:08 

It’s the word we use. 

00:23:10 

My or in your father and your mother and that. 

00:23:13 

Kind of stuff like. 

00:23:13 

My right? 

00:23:14 

Are you training this is your tree analogy, isn’t it? 

00:23:17 

No, really, no sound right? 

00:23:17 

Oh, it’s not your, it’s not. 

00:23:19 

It’s more about. 

00:23:19 

Your family of orientation trio analogy. 

00:23:22 

Louder Night it’s about loyalty. 

00:23:24 

So what I kind of felt at the time was a sign of loyalty and doing the right thing. 

00:23:28 

So when I was moving to Canberra to study when I was about 19 I. 

00:23:33 

Think was what had been older, actually. 

00:23:35 

Anyway, whatever I was I’m doing my brother saying to. 

00:23:38 

Me, you won’t go I said yeah well. 

00:23:40 

He said no, you are lady mother, so that kind of put into me. 

00:23:43 

The Daphne Campinas attitudes as well. 

00:23:45 

I’ll show you it’s and anyone who hasn’t made Daphne glistened episode forward. 

00:23:49 

It’s the PTW prove them wrong attitude. 

00:23:52 

The proof that Margot is cheat, we’re going. 

00:23:52 

It’s CTW. 

00:23:53 

To have to. 

00:23:54 

We’ve got a whole glossary of acronyms that. 

00:23:56 

We need to. 

00:23:56 

Actually put up, I think by the. 

00:23:58 

Into this, but yeah, there was that so. 

00:24:00 

But then you. 

00:24:01 

Know by the time I was making a. 

00:24:03 

Decision about Darwin. 

00:24:04 

I’d kind of got to that point again where I’d stuck around so much because you know. 

00:24:08 

I’ve I’ve been. 

00:24:09 

In a relationship until about a year or two before that, or actually longer. 

00:24:13 

Actually, it broke up well before that, but I’d been in a relationship so that I used to limit. 

00:24:18 

So, forever considering moving away for a job. 

00:24:22 

I also had that very strong link with my my parents and my family and also kind of thought. 

00:24:28 

Well if I’m over web and I’ll. 

00:24:29 

Lose all that well. 

00:24:31 

The decision came to go to Darwin I. 

00:24:33 

Thought OK, well. 

00:24:35 

This is going to know if it’s going to impact, but I’ve really got to think about what I need to do long term for myself. 

00:24:42 

And Yep, I’ll be leaving by believing these people in situ where they’re living where I’ve grown up in that sort of thing, but I need to actually do this for myself. 

00:24:49 

And that’s kind of where I started to kind of think a bit more independently. 

00:24:53 

For myself, I think at that late age I thought, well, actually, you know I’ve got to actually start to think about what I need as well, not just living my life for everybody else. 

00:25:02 

It’s really interesting that the phrase he used in there, which is I was something like I was using those relationships to limit myself. 

00:25:10 

Yeah, yeah, that that’s actually. 

00:25:13 

A term that I came to understand and didn’t come to necessarily organically. 

00:25:18 

You know, like it’s something that like a concept that I actually came across years back. 

00:25:23 

There other other places limitations there. 

00:25:25 

For myself I I don’t want to go into any kind of territory of victim blaming or shaming or. 

00:25:29 

Anything like that? 

00:25:30 

Because there are a whole heap of things that that we decide to do or not that aren’t directly that. 

00:25:35 

If that makes. 

00:25:36 

Sense, but you know things like I’ll never have their relationships again. 

00:25:40 

If I move away, well, that’s just silly. 

00:25:42 

It’s clearly possible for people to maintain relationships across distances. 

00:25:49 

It’s clearly possible for people to visit each other into. 

00:25:51 

State you know growing up. 

00:25:53 

Or I used to have friends who had family, Interstate, new Golf on holidays and visit family and all that kind of stuff and it was never an issue. 

00:26:00 

So why should it be an issue for me? 

00:26:02 

And yet I continued to use that as an excuse not to go out and do those things for myself. 

00:26:07 

Oh, really. 

00:26:08 

I mean, I think I’ve replicated that as well you. 

00:26:10 

Know I’ve I’ve. 

00:26:11 

Stayed in unhealthy relationships because I feel like I had to, but that was the only choice I could do that. 

00:26:16 

We only choice. 

00:26:17 

Had you know he’ll do? 

00:26:19 

As not this one. 

00:26:20 

It’s going to be another one just like this one, so I just might as well make this one work ’cause there’s always going to be something I. 

00:26:25 

Don’t like maybe? 

00:26:26 

Just if I invest more time and more energy into this. 

00:26:29 

One then this one will work. 

00:26:32 

SCP some cross Phyllis. 

00:26:34 

There you go, change. 

00:26:40 

I do also wonder is it that I’ve actually. 

00:26:42 

Been in love with. 

00:26:43 

For who they are, or if it’s been for. 

00:26:47 

Who I thought they could be? 

00:26:48 

Yeah, so waiting to. 

00:26:49 

Hit that I have seen my mint. 

00:26:52 

I just got ******* just talking. 

00:26:55 

What’s that about? 

00:26:57 

Are we trying to collect so much data and unhappiness that eventually we overwhelm ourselves and shut down? 

00:27:02 

Or is it because the decision does become easier when one of the. 

00:27:05 

Options is abhorrent. 

00:27:07 

Or is it a case that the bigger the? 

00:27:08 

Emotion is the heart. 

00:27:09 

Of the decision is. 

00:27:10 

Well scientia professor Joe Foggers AM till fast said there is a correlation between mood and. 

00:27:17 

It very much depends on the decision that you need to make. 

00:27:21 

The way mood states operate. 

00:27:23 

It is essentially as a kind of evolutionary subconscious signal that tells us how to cope are hard to respond to a given situation. 

00:27:32 

So to put it very simply, if you happen to be in a positive mood, then subconsciously, what’s that signaling to your information processing? 

00:27:43 

System is that you are in a safe situation. 

00:27:46 

It’s familiar you can rely on what you’ve always done. 

00:27:50 

You don’t need to pay too much attention, and so you tend to make shortcuts, simplified decisions, and sometimes these are incorrect decision. 

00:28:00 

The negative mood is a kind of subconscious signal that says look out. 

00:28:06 

It’s not really what you expect. 

00:28:08 

There is something new here, pay attention and so people in a negative boot tend to think more slowly. 

00:28:15 

More carefully, more attentively, and in situations where the shortcut. 

00:28:20 

Would be the wrong decision. 

00:28:22 

They make the right disk. 

00:28:23 

Mention the some experiments we have done. 

00:28:26 

For example, it looks at person perception. 

00:28:28 

How do we form impressions of people? 

00:28:30 

Person perception is subject to many biases. 

00:28:34 

Most of the time we take one look and we know what this person is like. 

00:28:38 

It’s a primacy effect. 

00:28:39 

The first information dominates and you don’t care to look any further. 

00:28:44 

And we have found in a bunch of experiments that if you put people into a positive mood, they even more likely to rely on first impressions if you put them into a negative boot and you ask them to perform the same task they are going to be much more accurate because they look more carefully. 

00:29:00 

So some of these shortcuts and heuristics. 

00:29:03 

Six can be reduced by negative mood, and in those situations, negative mood produces a better outcome. 

00:29:10 

Other experiments, for example, people are better at detecting deception when they slightly in a sad mood. 

00:29:18 

There I witness memories are more accurate than they are in a negative mood. 

00:29:23 

So in lots of. 

00:29:25 

Kind of surprising ways. 

00:29:26 

Negative mood does improve processing. 

00:29:30 

Then careful attention is needed, but positive mood might improve processing when you need to be creative and you don’t have to pay too much attention to what’s going on, then you have to rely on what you already know, so it kind of depends on the demands. 

00:29:45 

Of the situation. 

00:29:46 

So it almost sounds like you’re saying if we need to make a major decision. 

00:29:49 

That’s going to have a big impact. 

00:29:51 

For us, we should probably watch 3 hours of news services and get angry first. 

00:29:55 

The problem with that is actually not very good in self manipulating Moody fever nobody would ever get depressed, so you know what we show is a process, but it’s not easily open to conscious manipulation, unfortunately. 

00:30:13 

Otherwise, a lot of psychologists would be awesome. 

00:30:16 

We will have live in a perfect world. 

00:30:20 

Well, if it were, if it didn’t have to be depressed. 

00:30:22 

If it was easy to control our moods and our feelings, then you know we wouldn’t need psychologists, would we? 

00:30:29 

If negative emotion helps us with. 

00:30:32 

Negative skepticism, then we if we feel bad about negative emotions, we experience them, but they’re actually quite a positive tool to have in our kit. 

00:30:41 

Absolutely, and I think that’s a very, very important message. 

00:30:45 

We live in a society that we have a cult of hedonism. 

00:30:49 

Everybody wants to be happy all the time. 

00:30:52 

If you go to a book shop, you see shelves and shelves of how to be happy. 

00:30:57 

And we do not recognize that some periods of sadness or negative mood are perfectly normal, perfectly natural, and oftentimes even useful if you think about, again, human history in the last 2000 years, most of the great artistic creations of Western civilization. 

00:31:18 

Had to do with tragedy, sadness, problems in other historical periods. 

00:31:24 

People thought it’s important to manage and relieve and experience negative effect because it’s instead. 

00:31:32 

Functional and in a way we are quite unique in our current modern cultural environment. 

00:31:37 

To think that only happiness will do anything that’s less than happiness is unacceptable. 

00:31:43 

I think we all could be a lot happier if you realize that sadness is an inevitable, essential and oftentimes useful. 

00:31:52 

And adaptive part of the. 

00:31:53 

The human emotional repertoire. 

00:31:56 

It’s part of it. 

00:31:57 

One of the things that I’ve been working on with my own psychologist is that when I feel a negative emotion it, let’s say it’s sadness that’s not something that is easy for me to let pass because it’s not the sadness that is the problem. 

00:32:11 

It’s then my judgment and self criticism and anger. 

00:32:16 

That I’ve felt. 

00:32:17 

Sad that I’ve let myself feel that way. 

00:32:20 

Now I have the. 

00:32:21 

Scientia professor on the. 

00:32:25 

Don’t worry about it. 

00:32:28 

I’m just saying. 

00:32:29 

You know a few more degrees in the in on the on the wall than my psychologist, but that’s normal, right? 

00:32:35 

Though isn’t it so we shouldn’t. 

00:32:36 

Look, it it. 

00:32:37 

Depends on the on the duration and intensity. 

00:32:41 

Obviously enduring negative emotion is debilitating and needs to be dealt with and requires help. 

00:32:48 

All I’m saying is that temporary and manageable negative emotion is in a way. 

00:32:55 

Part of life. 

00:32:56 

And, by the way, most psychotherapy essentially tells you the same thing. 

00:33:01 

Don’t worry about it. 

00:33:03 

You have to learn tactics of telling yourself how you don’t need to worry about it. 

00:33:08 

What you cannot control, what you cannot help. 

00:33:11 

There is only one solution to learn to ignore it or not, worry about it. 

00:33:15 

But basically, expecting to be happy or the time is impossible. 

00:33:21 

Logically, psychologically. 

00:33:23 

Culturally happiness would have no meaning if you had no sadness. 

00:33:27 

OK, so I’m rolling up my sleeves. 

00:33:30 

It’s going to sound like a bit of a. 

00:33:32 

Cliche doesn’t have an acronym. 

00:33:34 

We’ll work on an acronym, but. 

00:33:36 

It’s often said, and I can attest to, its truthfulness that when they’re faced with their own mortality, we really start to question where we sit in the world. 

00:33:45 

I’ve lost both my parents now and for me there’s been nothing. 

00:33:48 

More eye opening than to really get a sense of my place in the family. 

00:33:52 

You know, we spoke earlier in the series and if you haven’t cut it out that reference that you were making about my family of origin and my family of. 

00:34:00 

For now I can’t cut it out, can I? 

00:34:02 

Ha ha ha. 

00:34:05 

My family of orientation and my family of origin and how? 

00:34:07 

You broke it, was I? 

00:34:08 

Think was the family of procreation. 

00:34:10 

And procreation sorry. 

00:34:11 

Family of family of orientation and family of procreation and how much of that was just based. 

00:34:17 

On that company. 

00:34:17 

Feeling of knowing your place? 

00:34:19 

Remember like it’s so simple just to turn up to events in our goals is what I gotta do is what I put up with and will. 

00:34:24 

Be out of. 

00:34:25 

Here in two hours. 

00:34:25 

So there we go. 

00:34:26 

Rifle yeah routine. 

00:34:28 

Even if you don’t like it. 

00:34:29 

Oh my God. 

00:34:30 

Here, but what if? 

00:34:31 

That place doesn’t really allow or. 

00:34:32 

Afford you the space to. 

00:34:34 

Articulate what you feel or you need. 

00:34:36 

But if every time you try to talk about something you just cast as being. 

00:34:40 

The dramatic 1. 

00:34:41 

Or the selfish one, or especially if you get to the point where the the IFD moment. 

00:34:48 

And then you get your stick and you Chuck it in the code with the machines, that’s one. 

00:34:51 

Yellow Yep. 

00:34:51 

Of my analogies. 

00:34:52 

Yolo and everything just kind of comes to a halt, because if I. 

00:34:55 

Can stop it. 

00:34:56 

So that that’s stopping or functioning? 

00:34:58 

Is that what happened when your mom died? 

00:34:59 

I think I started to kind of find some sticks that. 

00:35:02 

Didn’t quite work. 

00:35:03 

00:35:03 

That didn’t quite stop the machine, but I’ll ******* stopped it now, but anyway. 

00:35:06 

WWSD what would? 

00:35:09 

Lord sticks do they beneficially break and they kind of stole us down more than the process itself sometimes, but you know. 

00:35:17 

I can’t confirm. 

00:35:17 

One way or the other other than my personal response at the time. 

00:35:20 

But when Mom passed away, for example, I really felt there was a bit of an expectation that I’d move back to. 

00:35:25 

Sydney and look. 

00:35:26 

After that you know rather than continuing this. 

00:35:29 

New fully of this newly. 

00:35:30 

Forged career path that I. 

00:35:32 

Just started nine months earlier. 

00:35:34 

You know Mom died nine months after I moved to Darwin after a lifetime of stalking myself. 

00:35:37 

To study radio career. 

00:35:39 

’cause you know what happens? 

00:35:40 

What if something happens? 

00:35:41 

To me then anyway, yeah but I started my. 

00:35:44 

Radio career so kind of fill those expectation that I would send Sonia and we could give that like if you wanted to or also as in any relationship, that kind of didn’t feel like that. 

00:35:55 

That was being held in very high regard at the time either, so at. 

00:35:58 

The time I made the bold and. 

00:36:00 

Roof and I said I’m staying Adelaide and I’ll do whatever I possibly came by of support for me to stay, but I’m staying here. 

00:36:07 

This is where I live, so that was my first stick and I thought that it kind of felt good asserting for myself what I needed within that to, you know, like I loved my dad, I would have done. 

00:36:16 

Anything for him, but I wouldn’t. 

00:36:17 

Do that like you know, we both said that wasn’t me. 

00:36:18 

I mean that was a mate last song. 

00:36:20 

Me listen. 

00:36:20 

Yeah, I think in lots of ways to had I moved back there at that time to look after him, he wouldn’t have had probably as long a life I wouldn’t have killed him, but he certainly wouldn’t have been happy and I wouldn’t have been happy. 

00:36:32 

And I don’t think things would have been great for either of us like I could have been in a much worse mental state. 

00:36:36 

Yeah, and it gave him the chance to find that independence and to find things that he liked on his own outside of a relationship that he had been in for decades too so. 

00:36:37 

At end of that. 

00:36:45 

Yeah, we were both grown man. We didn’t want to be in each other’s space or anything like that. 

00:36:49 

I made a stack of trips to Sydney between to sustain their dad after it be in hospital for example, but there is something else start to crop up. 

00:36:56 

It was this patronizing statement of our Android. 

00:37:00 

To be helpful, there are problems. 

00:37:00 

Oh, I want you know if they’re using your full name. 

00:37:03 

It’s never good, Andrew. 

00:37:04 

Well, I know right? 

00:37:05 

So they always do. 

00:37:05 

Of course they don’t really know me as handy. 

00:37:07 

I’m Andrew to the family, it’ll crop up whenever the idea of me having any kind of input was involved like I was doing it for me and not for Dad. 

00:37:14 

So when Dad passed away, those patterns really seemed to niggle, even warn me they were glaring even brighter. 

00:37:21 

So I had to make a choice for myself to back away from family relationships. 

00:37:24 

He made a decision I made. 

00:37:25 

A decision. 

00:37:26 

A conscious decision. 

00:37:27 

Well, it wasn’t. 

00:37:28 

Without its stresses, now suppose the important thing to note here is that I never made a decision. 

00:37:34 

I’m done forever with this more because they’re my family. 

00:37:37 

It also was definitely one of I’m absolutely done with relating like this. 

00:37:43 

RFD I’m I’ll. 

00:37:44 

Deal with the way that we’re relating years so. 

00:37:47 

All that relating with that was all shortcuts to. 

00:37:49 

Though, wasn’t it? 

00:37:50 

Ah, it was. 

00:37:50 

Old stuff that had been done over years. 

00:37:53 

You know, like we built up over years and this was just the way we did it. 

00:37:56 

This is my place in the pecking order. 

00:37:58 

This is what was expected to be. 

00:38:00 

This is what we do. 

00:38:01 

They do this. 

00:38:02 

You do that and that’s the end of the story. 

00:38:04 

So that wasn’t any good for me anymore. 

00:38:07 

You know it wasn’t any good for me then. 

00:38:09 

It’s not. 

00:38:09 

But now I knew. 

00:38:09 

Good for anybody. 

00:38:10 

It wasn’t, yeah exactly. 

00:38:11 

Really, I had to make their decision to back right away to protect myself from falling back into those unconscious habits of communication. 

00:38:18 

I had to stop relying on those shortcuts. 

00:38:20 

Lazy thinking is Joe focus. 

00:38:22 

Kindly call set up. 

00:38:24 

Lazy cognitive decision making. 

00:38:27 

Lazy cognitive decision making. 

00:38:29 

But when he says that it sounds so much more intelligent. 

00:38:32 

I think it is excellent really like his accent. 

00:38:33 

Yeah it is. 

00:38:34 

Anyway, I I had to start the hard work then of asking myself. 

00:38:38 

What do I really want and what does that mean? 

00:38:40 

Because when you put the stick in the machining and stop it. 

00:38:42 

Well then you gotta choose consciously. 

00:38:44 

You can’t go on expecting the machine to take along like it like it has for everything to be better because. 

00:38:48 

No, well you broke. 

00:38:49 

The spokey dokes. 

00:38:50 

Yeah exactly. I brought the spokey dokey’s. 

00:38:52 

Right and and did you have the helmet on as you went? 

00:38:54 

Flying over the handlebars. 

00:38:56 

Or sometimes it feels like I didn’t bet short. 

00:39:00 

My stream is on the handlebars. 

00:39:02 

On the other hand, probably haven’t come through so nicely, but I can get new ones. 

00:39:07 

That’s the whole point. 

00:39:08 

Like in the short term, it meant taking the oxygen out of any potential to be spoken down toward is. 

00:39:13 

Respected and as Joel said to us before, just because I can’t hear that anymore, doesn’t stop them from thinking it or. 

00:39:20 

Potentially saying it to others, but it’s not my job to change anyone else. 

00:39:23 

I need to focus on making whatever interactions I have helpful for me instead of limiting my in. 

00:39:28 

Potential so then. 

00:39:29 

Last 12 months or so, the span of US recording the interviews for this podcast and the the journey of us starting a business and the journey of you personally in that time of making conscious decisions to put yourself first. 

00:39:43 

How does that play out? 

00:39:44 

Look, I think you know to some extent. 

00:39:45 

I’ve had to compartmentalize some of that, but also I think the decisions I’ve been making on that bigger family level have also helping to make better decisions in other areas too. 

00:39:55 

Do you mean? 

00:39:56 

It’s all related. 

00:39:57 

Oh, could be. 

00:39:58 

It could be spoiled life. 

00:39:58 

So, do you mean that we don’t exist in? 

00:40:00 

A vacuum it. 

00:40:01 

Could be, and when you’ve emptied that vacuum cleaner bag, don’t be surprised if some morphine. 

00:40:07 

There’s plenty more dust bunnies out there. 

00:40:09 

Oh, there’s plenty more. 

00:40:10 

The major decisions have been applied this year, but they will be while I’ve been maintaining a distance from that relative, for example, who who scorned me? 

00:40:18 

Who basically said some nasty things, unforgivable things really, and and. 

00:40:21 

Yeah, I know we were making a lot, but this scorning was scornful. 

00:40:26 

Yeah, it was pretty shameful actually. 

00:40:27 

And hell hath no fury like that. 

00:40:29 

Of an Andrew. 

00:40:30 

Scorned, correct? 

00:40:31 

And I’ve had plenty of study being stubborn as well, but it’s not a bad. 

00:40:35 

Stubborn is. 

00:40:35 

It’s about not taking a **** 

00:40:38 

Yeah, and I’ve also apart from there. 

00:40:40 

Polls have kept a bit more of a distance from other family members as well, because I’ve had to look at myself and my own behaviors in all of that. 

00:40:48 

And looking at you know how I do sometimes demonstrate behaviors that I don’t admire in others and then just come before when interacting with family sometimes, because that’s what we’ve always done. 

00:40:57 

And sometimes I don’t treat myself well in that either so. 

00:41:00 

You know I become a different person. 

00:41:02 

When I’m around them. 

00:41:03 

And I would rather just be myself. 

00:41:04 

Yeah, but you. 

00:41:05 

Know what. 

00:41:06 

When I be myself often I feel like I’m being judged and then I judge myself as not being good enough so the validation that I used to get from family was from people who aren’t you anymore. 

00:41:16 

They’re gone. 

00:41:17 

They did. 

00:41:17 

You know whilst validating others in my family for their achievements, I’ve generally found very little admiration or respect in return and and. 

00:41:25 

That they in fact do what they accuse me of, which is making the subject always about them. 

00:41:29 

So my decision on that score has been to maintain a distance so. 

00:41:33 

I can work. 

00:41:33 

Out how I can best support myself in being me and liking me and building more people around me that like me for who I am before letting any of the others back in, potentially throwing their balance of course. 

00:41:44 

Yeah, you’ve gotta gotta get your own boat floating before you can take. 

00:41:47 

On any passengers. 

00:41:48 

I mean, I’ve got plenty of buckets to paint out. 

00:41:49 

The sheet but I. 

00:41:50 

Don’t want to be kind of getting water in that boat before I need to. 

00:41:54 

And also in that time as well, because I’m working out who I am. 

00:41:58 

I’m actually working out a lot more comfy. 

00:42:00 

Currently how I can actually respond to some of those potential speed humps or sticks that are thrown back in my direction by not making a decision at this stage to let that particular person back into my life, I’m giving myself space. 

00:42:12 

I’m not shining them out completely forever. 

00:42:14 

I’m I’m not allowing myself to be intimidated or bullied into acquiescence, and I’m certainly not. 

00:42:20 

Looking at ways that I can. 

00:42:21 

Hold myself personally responsible and shoulder the full responsibility either. 

00:42:26 

Because that would. 

00:42:27 

Just be returning to business as usual and I’ve rejected that. 

00:42:30 

You know that that’s done. 

00:42:31 

That business is done in shops closed. 

00:42:33 

The stuff about family dynamics that you talk about it’s it’s so relatable and I’ve definitely had my place as being somebody who, when they were younger, felt like the loud. 

00:42:44 

Just people were the ones that got to have a say and I had to keep it within because that was that was how to survive. 

00:42:51 

That was the I mean. 

00:42:52 

I suppose that’s the shortcut to being able to deal with the situation because the confrontation wasn’t necessarily great. 

00:42:58 

Yeah, it’s much easier to shut up and just take whatever they say, then try and have a. 

00:43:03 

Say and be shot down in flames. 

00:43:05 

I know you love analogies. 

00:43:06 

Andy the. 

00:43:07 

I don’t. 

00:43:07 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. 

00:43:09 

Absolutely, and boy have we gone through some grease. 

00:43:14 

The squeaky wheel also apparently gets the the sticks around in it too. 

00:43:18 

We spoke, Yikes well, the squeaky. 

00:43:20 

Wheels the weapons have to stick in. 

00:43:21 

It and throws the stick back. 

00:43:24 

And then it gets on Facebook and leaves a passive aggressive rant from the. 

00:43:28 

It leaves a passive aggressive squeak all over the. 

00:43:31 

Internet, it gets its axle to send some. 

00:43:33 

Cutlery through the post. 

00:43:36 

Reference to an older episode. 

00:43:39 

So this squeaky wheel, that one that is always. 

00:43:43 

Speaking out and getting all the attention because it needs the attention and then says don’t you speak because you’re just looking for attention. 

00:43:50 

The loudest voices. 

00:43:51 

I’m the one that needs attention. 

00:43:52 

The loudest voice does influence our thinking, especially when we’re actually making decisions unconsciously. 

00:44:00 

As Joe Focus points out, something. 

00:44:03 

You mentioned before reminded me. 

00:44:04 

From another one of the papers I read before, highly visible people appear more important. 

00:44:09 

So when you’ve got these voices shouting loudly on social media, or I suppose the Trump’s and stuff of the world, why is it if you make the most noise, then you look like your little voice to be believed? 

00:44:21 

Basically it’s a this is called a Halo effect. 

00:44:24 

In social psychology, the idea if somebody has some highly visible feature then that will trump everything else. 

00:44:32 

Not Trump Trump but Trump. 

00:44:36 

Verb Trump, and again this has a deep evolutionary function. 

00:44:42 

If you imagine yourself in a Stone Age environment, then paying attention to whatever is most visible is a good strategy. 

00:44:49 

You don’t pay equal attention to everything you pay attention, which is most salient, most visible. 

00:44:55 

And so that’s how the human mind works that had an adaptive function for 200,000 years. It nowadays often leads to mistaken judgments because we mistake people highly visible. I mean, take a very interesting example. People often ask pop singers or celebrities or sportsman. 

00:45:16 

About their opinions on issues in which they are totally idiotic, they’re not entitled. 

00:45:21 

Comment on. 

00:45:23 

Why would you want to know why? 

00:45:25 

Hey, what’s the name of that woman, Hilton? 

00:45:29 

Oh Paris Hilton, yeah? 

00:45:30 

Now Sylvia, why do? 

00:45:32 

You want to know what Paris Hilton thinks about anything, and the answer is because she’s highly visible, so we have this idea that if somebody is highly visible, they must know something about everything. 

00:45:43 

Why do we? 

00:45:44 

Why do we ask a pop singer 10 minutes after arriving in a country about how do you like Australia? 

00:45:50 

Why would you want to know? 

00:45:51 

He doesn’t know you don’t know and they’re not qualified to comment. 

00:45:54 

So essentially, if you look at the pages of, you know the more popular media, it’s full of people being asked to comment on staff about which they know nothing because they are famous in some other dimension. 

00:46:09 

Is there an? 

00:46:09 

Element within that that. 

00:46:11 

As humans, we want to actually believe that we can reach the heights of those people and find some sense of normality or some comparative normality between, let’s say for example. 

00:46:22 

People who you know. 

00:46:23 

Follow the royal family or follow Hollywood celebrities. 

00:46:27 

That in seeking out behaviors or responses that are similar to their own makes them feel like they can also get to that. 

00:46:34 

Yeah, that’s another mechanism. 

00:46:36 

It’s a kind of identification, a mimicking mechanism, and that again is an evolutionary pattern. 

00:46:45 

You know, if you see somebody successful or visible, then mimicking copying their behavior is a natural adaptive response. 

00:46:54 

So yes we do. 

00:46:55 

Ah, even though in this highly individualistic society this doesn’t really work, because the people you look up to are not actually part of your tribe, they who knows what they are so mimicking them is not necessarily a good strategy. 

00:47:10 

But it’s another example of what you might call an evolutionary vulnerability. 

00:47:16 

We bring with us all kinds of baggage from Stone Age hunter gatherer days. 

00:47:22 

We still function the same way. 

00:47:24 

But in an environment which is totally different than many other examples of that, you know, obesity is an evolutionary vulnerability in a Stone Age environment, eating as much as you can is a really smart thing to do because you don’t know when you can eat again, then you are living in a Society of plenty. 

00:47:42 

We still have this tendency to it. 

00:47:44 

As much as we can do, and it’s actually killing us. 

00:47:47 

There are many of these built-in programs which are now producing dysfunctional consequences. 

00:47:54 

Would you say that? 

00:47:54 

Fake it till you make it is not true at all. 

00:47:57 

Then if mimicry doesn’t work like that? 

00:48:00 

I would think that in a in a reasonably well functioning society, fake it till you make it should not work because as long as people are fairly rational and reasonable you get to be found out. 

00:48:14 

So decision making processes being evolutionary speaks to nature, but I suppose what about the nurture side of it all? 

00:48:20 

You know those formative experiences that we have that impact our ability to make decisions as we grow up. 

00:48:26 

If we haven’t had somebody nurture us into believing that we are capable of making healthy, good, solid decisions. 

00:48:34 

For ourselves that we have the. 

00:48:35 

Power to do that? 

00:48:36 

I mean do. 

00:48:37 

We grow up not believing that. 

00:48:38 

Yeah, well cognitive neuropsychologist at the brain and mind centre at the University of Sydney Marin Irish tells us about the importance of formative experiences. 

00:48:47 

This is when most people traditionally would have been doing these kind of forms of first experiences. 

00:48:53 

So you would maybe have your you know, doing your big exams, getting your first car first job, maybe meeting your partner first, date all this kind of theme getting married first child so that tended to produce this sort of cluster. 

00:49:07 

Of really memorable and sort of self referential events that define the person and so most people would retrieve from that time period. 

00:49:17 

Right? 

00:49:17 

So Andy, in mentioning that you’re clearing some space around yourself to make better decisions. 

00:49:23 

It’s like making you’re making a more supportive. 

00:49:25 

Network for yourself. 

00:49:27 

Yeah, one that’s more meaningful for you. 

00:49:29 

Probably comes with a sense of balance. 

00:49:29 

In unit yes. 

00:49:31 

And Joe focus describes this as the emotional wound points. 

00:49:36 

People who do research on this suggests that each of us has a kind of middle point. 

00:49:43 

The average of our effective state, and there is a fluctuation around it that goes up and down, up and down. 

00:49:50 

And the. 

00:49:51 

This average point is not easily changed. 

00:49:55 

You know all day if you think about what happened to you since you got up this morning, you are on a roller coaster of different moods and emotional states. 

00:50:04 

I mean everything that happens to you, everything you see, everything you do has an emotional undercurrent. 

00:50:10 

It’s always there. 

00:50:11 

And many of the times that under current is actually useful. 

00:50:16 

It’s almost like you tuning a machine to work at optimum speed. 

00:50:21 

If you’re in a good mood, you become a little bit lazy when you’re in a bad mood, you become a little bit more attentive. 

00:50:28 

It’s it’s like something that manages how you respond to situations and. 

00:50:33 

You could almost say that the way the brain works is anticipating trying to extrapolate from what is not what is going to be next, and emotions and moods have a critical role in tuning that expectation. 

00:50:48 

Another of the guests we’ve spoken to during the series teacher rose, author of Life, interrupted and Person Living with Ms and her coaching, is based on her first hand experience of the stress and anxiety that’s caused by life changing decisions. 

00:51:00 

She talked to us about the important role intuition plays in her decision making process. 

00:51:05 

You have to block out negative comments. 

00:51:07 

You have to have a real inner confidence that the decisions you make are right. 

00:51:12 

It’s for your journey and for me. 

00:51:15 

I kept thinking that yeah, have your opinion, but at the end of the day, you’re not going to be in hospital bed or sitting in the wheelchair with me unable to move. 

00:51:23 

And sometimes I have made decisions which people I know give you funny looks, even leaving Telstra. 

00:51:30 

I was on a really good income there’s. 

00:51:32 

Great supports there, and I left that to travel overseas by myself, you know? 

00:51:38 

So I was told by financial advisor. 

00:51:40 

That was a stupid move, you know. 

00:51:41 

Telstra paid a great pension and I was like, well, my mid 20s or my friends are traveling. 

00:51:46 

I want to travel. 

00:51:47 

I can you know I’m up and working now. 

00:51:49 

I want to get out of here and keep going, so I was confident that was the right decision for me and it was the best decision I’ve ever made. 

00:51:57 

You become more optimistic when you become more open to the possibility of change as well, and you all of sudden think, ah, I could be doing that and that’s what happened. 

00:52:08 

When I traveled my. 

00:52:10 

Neurologist used to laugh and say well, where are we off to this time? Because when I was really sick in 2002 thousand and one I ended up traveling overseas by myself. 

00:52:21 

And that was calculated to do it by myself because I realized how skater was about being a lying in hospital and not saying I had incredibly supportive family and friends. 

00:52:32 

But that’s the realization that at night you are alone and you have to dig deep and you have to find something within yourself. 

00:52:39 

So I wanted that experience. 

00:52:41 

Of traveling overseas by myself and knowing I can get through challenges. 

00:52:45 

And then in 2003 again was really, really sick. This time was in hospital, back in the wheelchair. 

00:52:51 

This time I. 

00:52:51 

Couldn’t use my arms very well and my doctor said, well, where are you? 

00:52:55 

After this time. 

00:52:56 

And I sort of set myself a goal, and that’s when I went to Romania in 2004, just to experience a totally different culture and to put. 

00:53:05 

Again, my illness in. 

00:53:08 

Summer is the difference between intuitive and scientific decision making. 

00:53:12 

Joe Focus has something to say about this, as you might expect. 

00:53:15 

To eat and how the louder? 

00:53:17 

Voices can influence our thinking. 

00:53:20 

How many other cliches can we bust with you? 

00:53:23 

I don’t know, I mean. 

00:53:24 

I don’t necessarily want to bust. 

00:53:30 

About life as a D motivational speaker jokes. 

00:53:33 

Well look, we teach this in the first or second lecture in social psychology. 

00:53:38 

The difference between intuitive knowledge and scientific knowledge. 

00:53:42 

Intuitive knowledge is cliches improved. 

00:53:45 

Herbs and when you start thinking about proverbs what you realize that for every proverb there is an opposite proverb telling exactly the opposite. 

00:53:54 

So by definition, proverbs are not true because the opposite is equally true. 

00:54:01 

Uh, and yet. 

00:54:01 

Sounds very newtonian. 

00:54:03 

But for every forces and equal and opposite. 

00:54:06 

Well, it’s it’s it. 

00:54:07 

It’s a comment of the human mind that we like to summarize intuitive wisdom into short little statements and we do not realize that if we looked further, we would. 

00:54:19 

We would find exactly the opposite. 

00:54:21 

Occurs just as. 

00:54:22 

Often, so the difference between scientific thinking and intuitive thinking is that intuitive thinking is based on shortcut simplifications categorization. 

00:54:33 

Scientific knowledge has to take into account the whole spread of relevant information, and so essentially none of the proverbs are true because. 

00:54:42 

The opposite of democracy as well, and none of the cliches are true because if you stop and think another moment, you realize the opposite is true. 

00:54:52 

Taking till you make it. 

00:54:53 

Yeah sometimes other times shaking till you get caught. 

00:54:56 

It’s just as true. 

00:54:59 

It’s funny when Andy and I were looking at putting this series together. 

00:55:02 

We were looking for people to talk to. 

00:55:04 

Who could I suppose give like give us tools, give us actual information of how to. 

00:55:11 

Reshape ideas, give us new perceptions in it, and in that we’ve also come across a lot of people who would call themselves motivational speakers and really everything in their philosophy boils down to a tiny short phrase that I suppose now that you’ve educated us about it is just a shortcut in thinking and there’s such that that’s. 

00:55:31 

Not helpful, is it? 

00:55:33 

That’s not actually helpful to anybody. 

00:55:35 

Well, it hasn’t been very helpful to me since. 

00:55:39 

I’m more of them. 

00:55:40 

Not happy than happy, but then. 

00:55:43 

Uh, I guess if you want to cope in life you you still have to use the best tools available to you and that is still rational scientific, you know? 

00:55:53 

Reasonable thinking I’m. 

00:55:56 

I’m not sure what I can say about motivational speakers. 

00:55:58 

No no no. 

00:55:59 

I mean typically what they do is they want to boost yourself confidence they want to. 

00:56:03 

Give your positive outlook and I’m sure that he’s working for some people. 

00:56:07 

If you don’t even try to get something done, then you have to work up enough self confidence to have a goal, and that’s definitely the right thing. 

00:56:16 

To do, but after you’ve done that, you still have to think rationally and carefully about how you want to go about it. 

00:56:24 

You’ve given us so many things to think about today. 

00:56:27 

I I don’t even know how to begin to apply some of these things in real life. 

00:56:32 

That it wasn’t kind of formulated with the idea of application, you know. 

00:56:38 

I think you’ve ever seen for one thing. 

00:56:40 

Highlighted is that, but nothing is certain that that you know within everything that’s presented to us is valuable to question that and to find our own space within that. 

00:56:49 

To do what we? 

00:56:51 

Feel is best for us in that moment. 

00:56:53 

Yeah, I mean, I suppose the you know the ultimate message might be that being individual or trying to be an individual. 

00:57:01 

It’s difficult, tiresome, painful, but it’s still the best way to go if you want to live in a reasonable society. 

00:57:09 

And if you want to make relatively better decisions other than. 

00:57:14 

Abandoning yourself to the truth of a child you choose to belong to, taking your decisions ready made for you by a leader or by the particular group you identify. 

00:57:25 

Lots of things to think about, like. 

00:57:27 

Let’s not forget values as well. 

00:57:29 

That’s something that. 

00:57:31 

I was in the various. 

00:57:31 

It’s it’s a few. 

00:57:32 

Episodes ago now where we worked at our personal values. 

00:57:35 

Thanks to a good conversation we had with best selling Australian small business author Andrew Griffiths. 

00:57:40 

Yeah, he really spoke about the importance of knowing your values and he went even further to say how he’s feeling his impact on the decisions that he makes. 

00:57:50 

I think having. 

00:57:51 

A really clear value set. 

00:57:53 

I know what my values are. 

00:57:54 

I know what I will do and I won’t do it. 

00:57:56 

I’m really clear on my own integrity and. 

00:57:59 

You know that’s sometimes hard. 

00:58:00 

For other people, because they also menu, you’re hard to be with because you know your expectations are so high of how people should act. 

00:58:09 

And that’s you know I’m toughest on myself for that. 

00:58:12 

I have a really high value set and I don’t really know where that came from. 

00:58:16 

I think it was. 

00:58:17 

From seeing the opposite of that in life, yeah, at an early age I think I don’t wanna be that guy. 

00:58:22 

That beats up women. 

00:58:23 

I don’t wanna be that guy that steal stuff. 

00:58:25 

I don’t wanna be that guy that smokes heroin steals cars. 

00:58:28 

I you know, like the part that I was going on, I I guess I decided I wanted to be the opposite of all of those things I actually hated and rejected. 

00:58:36 

So I think having a. 

00:58:38 

That clarity of value was really helpful for me. 

00:58:42 

I think the second part of that though, is when I was that age when I was 17 or 18. 

00:58:46 

I think you know, I. 

00:58:48 

I looked at life as everything was so black and white. 

00:58:51 

And in the middle was this tiny little Gray area, you know, sort of right or wrong. And then this little kind of grey, or what I realize now at 55 is, there’s this giant Gray area and a little bit of black. 

00:59:02 

A little bit of white on either end and and I think that that has probably as much as I hold myself to a really high value set. 

00:59:10 

I really appreciate and respect. 

00:59:12 

And understand how other people are and being OK in in knowing that it’s you know, just ’cause I’m like that doesn’t mean everyone is like that or everyone I should expect that of everyone else. 

00:59:21 

So I’ve. 

00:59:22 

Learned to be. 

00:59:23 

A lot more understanding and accommodating and and realizing that the the the black and white absolutes don’t translate a lot when you are thinking about how others are and you know, like like this whole thing we’re going through at the moment, you’re either, you know, a tin hat for aware or not. 

00:59:40 

I’m going to dislike that person now. 

00:59:42 

I’m not an owner for. 

00:59:42 

20 years because. 

00:59:43 

I disagree with him about vaccine are not going to be my friend anymore I go. 

00:59:46 

I don’t want to be like that. 

00:59:48 

I just want to go back to that stage of being able to. 

00:59:50 

To still love someone and. 

00:59:52 

Be able to disagree with them. 

00:59:53 

You know, and and you know or disagree with. 

00:59:55 

Them and still still love them. 

00:59:57 

So yeah, I I guess over the year. 

01:00:00 

Is this this constant mission to just become a better version of myself? 

01:00:05 

I mean, it’s a bit of a cliched answer, but but it’s really true. 

01:00:09 

You know, every Friday morning 10:00 o’clock, I asked myself a simple question. 

01:00:12 

How am I better as a man this week than I was last week? 

01:00:16 

You know, in some weeks I am. 

01:00:17 

In some weeks, I’m probably not, you know. 

01:00:20 

But I I I want. 

01:00:21 

To ask myself and I asked myself and up how is my business better this week? 

01:00:25 

Than it was last week. 

01:00:26 

You know to that constant their constant effort to try and be that better version of myself. 

01:00:34 

It’s only a competition I’m having with myself, so it’s not a. 

01:00:37 

There’s no one else involved in it, it’s just me. 

01:00:39 

Then I’m trying to be that that better version of myself. 

01:00:43 

OK, so we’ve been talking a fair bit about making an active decision here, says the cognitively lazy Louise. 

01:00:51 

But what about when? 

01:00:52 

You don’t make a decision because making no decision is also making a decision. 

01:00:56 

Well, yeah, yeah it is. 

01:00:57 

We don’t want to have a channel for victim blaming you over time, shaming, which is something that can very easily be taken to that path and misconstrued by what I’m about to say. 

01:01:06 

But staying in an unhealthy relationship is also a decision. 

01:01:09 

Yeah, absolutely. 

01:01:10 

I mean, I can attest to this from personal experience, it’s like deciding to diminish yourself because of the consequences that you perceive might eventuate. 

01:01:20 

You know, sometimes those threats are. 

01:01:22 

Really, really really, really. 

01:01:25 

In real life, dangerous. 

01:01:27 

Sometimes people are at risk. 

01:01:28 

Definitely that goes without saying. 

01:01:30 

Yeah, but for this example, what if it’s more perceived risk? 

01:01:33 

I mean, I describe in decision as the frog in the boiling pot and not just because I know how much you love analogies. 

01:01:40 

And you did say to me last episode that we haven’t used many analogies lately, so I’ve actually been. 

01:01:44 

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I I’ve been trying very heavily this episode. 

01:01:48 

To throw in some more analogies for you. 

01:01:49 

Thank you, I do appreciate. 

01:01:51 

Yeah, you’ll go to my spokey dokey limit anytime soon. 

01:01:54 

So the frog in the boiling pot is like you keep getting presented with the series of things that they just keep chipping away, or you decide to live with more and more discomfort and you give up the things that are good for you. 

01:02:05 

Suddenly you’re in. 

01:02:05 

A boiling pot of water need deep, you might say. 

01:02:08 

Umm, because always needed. 

01:02:09 

Nice, did it need it good. 

01:02:11 

Oh my God. 

01:02:19 

That was riveting. 

01:02:20 

Read it. 

01:02:23 

Right? 

01:02:24 

Have you got feet dead joke quite out ’cause? 

01:02:26 

I’m not even a dad, so. 

01:02:28 

My 2 cats would disagree. 

01:02:30 

Cat Dad quarter. 

01:02:31 

I’ve had my cat dead quote on. 

01:02:34