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Interrogator: Fresh out of their latest talk series after their sweeping win at the Angsty awards this year, Toxic Positivity joins us to talk about all things motivational and their talk show, Just Get It Done. Here’s a clip from their show
Cut to clip of TP speaking in a large room, addressing their audience
TP: I used to feel like I couldn’t, but then I decided to feel like I could!
FX: Whoop from the audience
TP: I used to hate mornings, but now I choose good vibes only!
FX: A “yeah” from the audience
TP: I used to feel bad about my life, then I told myself other people have it worse… JUST. GET. IT. DONE!
FX: Audience erupts with applause, fade to studio interview
Interrogator: Toxic Positivity, welcome, it’s been a while since we chatted. You’ve been busy spreading your good vibes around!
TP: Yes Interrogator. As you can hear from the clip of my latest talk series, Just Get It Done, people are motivated by my message
Interrogator: You talk about this notion of choice, of just getting in there and getting it done. Is it really as simple as that?
TP: Everyone’s got a choice, Interrogator. That moment I chose to JUST GET IT DONE was a real game changer for me.
Interrogator: It sounds like you’ve landed on a magic pill there. So is it about changing the belief? Is there a process behind that?
TP: Change the belief? Just make a different choice! JUST GET IT DONE! I literally took myself by the collar one day in front of the mirror and said “Toxic Positivity, you just need to believe you can”
Interrogator: But what was the actual process? There must be something you did?
TP: No! I just made a choice. Everyone has choices, Interrogator, and if you choose good vibes only, that’s what you get!
Interrogator: So do you believe that everyone can just choose to be happy?
TP: One hundred per cent!
Interrogator: So, what about people who are in situations they didn’t choose? Underpaid workers, for example?
TP: Choose to get a better job – JUST GET IT DONE!
Interrogator: Rising rents and housing affordability
TP: Stop renting. Choose to buy your own house – the avocado toast will still be there when you’ve paid it off!
Interrogator: What about people who’ve lost everything because of climate related floods or fires?
TP: A great example! They’ve still got their health! THey can choose to rebuild! JUST GET IT DONE!
Interrogator: But people died in those floods and fires.
TP: Look, I’m not claiming to solve all the world’s problems, but I can say that I’ve turned my life around
Interrogator: RIght, so your talk JUST GET IT DONE! is all about that, but there have been reports about things being toxic behind the scenes despite its good vibes only approach
TP: It was their choice to be negative when they KNEW we’re a good vibes only show
Interrogator: So how did you address their actual concerns about harassment and misconduct?
TP: In the end, we had to JUST GET IT DONE! We’ve got people with the right attitude working in the team now who know what happens if they don’t choose good vibes only
Interrogator: Sexual harrassment?
TP: I choose to be flattered when someone whistles at me
Interrogator: Some of them said they were bullied and unfairly managed
TP: You know me, Interrogator, it’s all about choice, and they chose to have an issue with my feedback, and as it turns out, there are plenty of other people, who really love working on this show
Interrogator: So what happened to those employees that flagged issues?
TP: All the staff involved have each made a better choice for themselves and decided to work somewhere else. In the end, they JUST GOT IT DONE. Good vibes only!
Louise & Andy converse
Choice hey how much of that easy hours to make and how?
Much of it is forced upon us.
This is Reframe of Mind
Is re frame of mind.
Where we deep dive into discussions about mental health, joined by some of Australia’s leading lines to expand our understanding of the world and ourselves.
Because we don’t exist in a vacuum and the way we talk about mental health shouldn’t either.
Well, your hosts Louise Poole and Andy Le Roy.
This question of deliberate change versus force changes really caught us analysing our past choices.
I’m wondering if we’ve ever really been.
Motivated to make a change or if.
The changes that we’ve made have been reactive.
Yeah, we’ve got to this point. A couple of episodes ago actually, where we realised that so many of these big decisions we’ve made throughout our lives, they kind of came about because we felt backed into a corner.
Yeah, it’s that I’m freaking done moment, which I think is.
What we live with.
I’m done with.
It’s also known as the I just ******* can’t anymore.
I’m so done with this **** moment.
I need to change something needs to change.
Yeah, it’s that situation where we’ve been ignoring something or pushing aside our feelings about something or the circumstances, and it builds and it builds and it builds until you hit that overwhelm and you can’t deal with it anymore. So explodes or implodes.
And it kind of forces you into.
Making some kind of change.
Like one of.
Those firefighters that just sprays its contents all over the straits.
Been a few episodes since you’ve had an analogy like that.
I know there it has been a while. I thought I’d sneak one in ’cause.
Like a fire hose that sprays it all over the street.
I’ve missed them.
We will hold the House don’t way really.
Because making no decision or not listening to how we’re really feeling for a long time is really making a decision to force ourselves into a place where.
We must take action.
And last episode we spoke to some of Australia’s leading women of STEM about the science of changing our thinking. Well, it’s actually possible what’s going on in our brains and our bodies and how we can deliberately.
Choose to make change that supports good sustainable mental.
One of those exports was leading Australian neuroscientists in occupational therapy and stroke rehabilitation and recovery research. Professor Leanne carry from the flu institute.
We’ve seen incredible results in stroke recovery and told us about how our behaviour changes our brain and vice versa.
00:06:22 Leeanne Carey
I think it’s really good because it’s a full. If it’s a challenge for it so that the person you know this part of the network is not working properly.
00:06:32 Leeanne Carey
So there has to be some way of trying to reconnect between those parts that are working and or to help support.
00:06:43 Leeanne Carey
Some of that.
00:06:44 Leeanne Carey
Breakdown food, a particular region that might have occurred, so I suppose when you use the word more modable it, it’s it’s almost a need based because of the challenge and whether.
00:06:58 Leeanne Carey
Or not, it’s.
00:06:58 Leeanne Carey
More moldable, but it, or whether it’s that it has to be moulded because these these.
00:07:06 Leeanne Carey
That’s going on and you know, we often think about you know how we change the brain to change the behaviour. But really, it’s also.
00:07:14 Leeanne Carey
So both ways how we change the behaviour to change the brain. So these are two way process going on.
How important is the link of the?
Meaningful nature activities. When looking at helping someone to retrain it right I.
00:07:27 Leeanne Carey
Think it’s really important, because if we think about our brain being a network to help us do things and to achieve a goal. If that goal is mainly.
00:07:39 Leeanne Carey
So it already the person is already working with you to achieve that and and it’s focused so that there is an opportunity to then call on the parts of the network that are important to that particular task.
00:08:00 Leeanne Carey
So give them examples so we work on actually helping people regain a sense of touch and use it in everyday activities and there’s different layers to the goals that are meaningful for them. It might be forced the goal of the sensation just to feel if there’s a difference.
00:08:20 Leeanne Carey
Between two surfaces through to the goal of being able to.
00:08:25 Leeanne Carey
To hold a fork without dropping it, for example. So the meaningfulness is really critical to get that, buy in, and then the steps along the way to achieve that goal.
So of having a meaningful goal is the key to motivation to take action that builds the new neural pathways and changes the brain. What are our goals, Andy?
And have we ever actually set them consciously on?
But this is a very good question. That question around what motivates our desire for change. Have we been moving towards something you want to achieve or moving away from something that we don’t want to experience anymore?
Another guest from earlier in the season diversity translator Sally Goldner AM knows plenty about this and hinted that making a change can often involve much more than making a choice.
00:09:14 Sally Goldner
It might mean that people have to face some of their emotions and whether that involves mental health work or sitting with their feelings were stripped means you know, sort of well when we can going to a German, hitting, punching.
00:09:27 Sally Goldner
Bennett, what it will?
00:09:28 Sally Goldner
Perks you know is about.
00:09:30 Sally Goldner
Unblock, it’s about that, perhaps unlearning or unblocking innocence and some.
00:09:35 Sally Goldner
People might not do that.
00:09:37 Sally Goldner
There, it’s the emotions are too big. They don’t know how to deal with it. They’re too scary, and so you’re not going to win them all. But it is about trying to appeal to a sense of logic and humanity. I think it’s about.
00:09:49 Sally Goldner
Both and that also leads into issues about gender in leadership in lots of ways, which is also another 24.
00:09:56 Sally Goldner
Hour pet topics.
00:09:58 Leeanne Carey
Uhm, instead of so much.
00:10:00 Sally Goldner
Which that comes into this. Ultimately, though, we’ve got to take that responsibility for ourselves, and This is why that’s a pet topic.
00:10:06 Sally Goldner
A bit of a you know button, so to speak, is for us, at least in Australia. 25 years it seems we’ve heard so much about individual freedom, but freedom and responsibility needs to be closely balanced for each individual.
00:10:20 Sally Goldner
And for groups and society as a whole, and I think we’ve a lot of times we’ve lost track of responsibility. And in the end we have to take responsibility for our choice.
00:10:29 Sally Goldner
It’s and some are simple.
00:10:31 Sally Goldner
You know we or if there’s a red light ahead will stop because that’s the responsible thing to do.
00:10:35 Sally Goldner
Well, we hope anyway, but you know, I just feel a lot of the time people won’t take responsibility for their choices and likely consequences.
00:10:43 Sally Goldner
So it is about that form of logic, but it is also about respecting that people have deep rooted feelings.
So taking responsibility for our own choices.
Easier said than done.
Yeah, I’d have to agree.
It’s hard, isn’t it like?
With that, well, you know somebody kind of brings out that word responsibility, then it seems like that people want to play a blank game and turn it into a little.
Your fault or point fingers or something like that, and it’s not about that in the context that Sally talks about it. I cannot speak for Sally, obviously, but.
Well, I get from what Sally says is that as adults we need to really have a look at ourselves and take responsibility for our own actions, our own reactions, and have a you know, a bit of a sense of our own party in the interaction.
Transfer take place. So here the story that’s been running from the beginning of this series for me is that I lost my dad and that there was a deterioration around that time between me and others in my family and.
I suppose looking.
At the pattern of my family and there have been times in like third family and.
There’s been a falling out between, you know, couple of people and.
00:11:54 Maree Teesson
00:11:55 Speaker 3
It can go for years.
So it’s such that’s such a common story, though. Isn’t it like that whole? Yeah, family fallouts and ongoing Rogers and and.
It is scared.
And you did this and they did that, and sometimes it feels like no one taking responsibility for their own choices in those arguments.
Yeah, so you know, I’ve I’ve had a couple of.
Brief conversations with one of those family members and it kind of got to a point where you know some of the conversation was getting quite productive around, like acknowledging what happened and you know that we obviously didn’t mean to harm each other and stuff like that. So that was understood. But then as the conversation progressed, it became more about.
You did this and you did this and you did this and that’s where it starts to get overwhelming again because it starts.
Just to feel like an attack at each point, I acknowledge, and I said look, I’m sorry, but also this this and this is what you did.
And so I started to kind of get a bit of a sense that there was a bit of an imbalance there as well, because while I was apologising, I.
Wasn’t getting anything back in return.
I suppose where I’m at with this or this part of the story is that I’m not taking any proactive action to try and heal that because I thought, OK, well, if one is going to result in is me actually just acquiescing and going back to.
Open quotes normal close quotes.
Then that’s not what I’m.
Up for anymore, you know.
I actually want to have a good.
Relationship with these people.
I don’t want that to be one of the power play, or one where you know well. Remember that thing you did X amount of years ago, because yeah, yeah, because you know I fully take.
Remember that thing you said when you were?
Responsibility for what I did around that time.
Grief aside and Shaka side and all that kind of stuff that comes with the death of a family member aside, I have no intention of wearing that as any kind of excuse for things I said or did because those things that I said and did were ultimately not directly related to that.
Death they were.
Actually related to years and years of built up.
Stuff like we’re talking about at the opening of the episode, IT chips away here over so many years and then something significant happens. And then both.
00:14:03 Kimberley Norris
Implode and explode.
Upload and explode and don’t go down.
Unfortunately, no glitter at all, so you think that’s a situation of keeping it in over and over? Keeping in the the way that you feel and never really making the decision to address it until the pressure cooker builds and the fire hydrant bursts and the yeah.
The situation with the death.
Of your dad.
And the overwhelming of that emotion in there.
It was kind of the trigger that it just ’cause it’s the catalyst that caused the burst, but it wasn’t the thing that.
It was if Nick had last year.
Caused the pressure buildup.
Yeah, well, you see, you know one of the comments that I received being, you know I’m too old for this ****
When I was talking about something that that it upset me, it’s really just a repeat of shutdowns that I’d received throughout all of my life.
You know that I was being dramatic or that I was just being stupid or or whatever, so came to a point within me.
Or I thought I.
00:15:00 Speaker 5
OK, well I’m
Not being heard, and if I’m not going to be heard, I’m not going to progress this conversation.
There is no point putting myself through that because at the moment I don’t know how to effectively have that conversation.
You know, if I can’t actually use my voice effectively and be heard, and for that not to be skewed into something like me trying to have an ulterior motive.
And gain power, that’s not what it’s about. It’s about trying to actually level things out and have a respectful relationship. But if that isn’t something that is so.
That way, by those other people, then there’s no point in me expanding all of that energy continually to try and fix something that ultimately is just going to lend me back in.
The same frustrated place.
So when we talk about the motivation to choose or to choose to change and we had that wonderful episode last week from the women of STEM that had so many great.
Resources on the actual, practical, tangible steps that we can use.
I mean, we even heard again from Leanne earlier.
This episode that it really is.
About having that, we’re finding that motivation that’s meaningful enough.
What do you think it was that yes, that was the moment that the pressure cooker burst that it exploded or imploded? But why were none of the other times that you swallowed down the fact that you weren’t expressing?
You really felt enough motivation to change to start making a choice for a healthier relationship with family members.
Yeah, that’s a good question. Always. Thanks for asking.
I I actually think that.
Can I have? Nobody’s my 100.
And $70.00 psychiatrist psychologist money now for you.
Yeah, sure, look for me. I think it was an acute awareness that I was alone now in that moment in that space. Because you know the leading limb of my family tree.
Right, my brothers were actually at the head of their own families, and so their traditions and things continued. But being a gay man who doesn’t have children of his own, then that sets me outside of that family.
Now you know, like we’re, we’re still obviously related, there is still that shared history and all of that, but.
The cortex that relationship.
Completely changed so you know, in that time and space where they had their families around them to provide support and comfort.
I was like a third wheel and I may or may not have been, you know, I’m sure that people involved would say, well, no, we didn’t believe that all. We don’t believe that at all. You were shutting us out and maybe I was.
Always going to be my next psychologist. Question is, have you have you considered now that you removed from the incident that the hindsight has?
Fast, yes, that they might have been argumentative at the time because they’re also in a place of hurt and no one really likes to be called out on things, and they probably did feel called out. But what might have been the motivation for them making the choices that they’ve made to?
Yeah, there’s a lot of other stuff over a number of years that built up to that moment too, so it’s difficult to talk about these things in isolation.
So when I say that that realisation to me kind of felt like the motivating factor in me exploding like I did, there’s a combination of things and inter relationships.
And being caught in the middle of other peoples arguments and fights and that sort of thing over a long period of time that I.
Really just had enough of.
I decided that I wasn’t.
Going to actually be a part of it anymore.
Taking the point that Leanne makes about making that kind of change for me, there was a massive step because I’ve always considered myself.
Quite close to my.
Family, and yet he was a move where I was actually breaking out of that mould, and I was actually changing the scripts, so I guess where my where my mind goes with with that kind of break away is that I knew that I needed to have a different quality of relationship with these people and I also knew that to just go through the same old patterns of.
I’m sorry, forgive me. I was bad boy.
That kind of stuff.
Wasn’t going to work for me.
Because that wasn’t going to change the dynamics of.
Any of that I’d really.
Felt that I needed to remove myself entirely from the dynamics of those relationships so that I could really get a good sense of myself and I actually wanted and needed.
In that motivation for change, or are you running towards clarity and empowerment for yourself? Or were you running away from being a part of that?
To be fair, I was definitely running away from what I just did not want any part of any more.
I didn’t want to be piggy in the middle, I didn’t.
Want to have any of those?
Or relationship things going on.
I’ve seen how things transpired for other people who have gone before me and I saw the impact on them emotionally, and I knew that if I actually stepped into those behaviours and allowed those people to continue.
With the way they actually treat people and allow them to do that to me, then I would be in a pretty vulnerable mental state.
I think the good thing is that we know from people we’ve spoken to since we’ve been putting together this series and the work that we’ve done on ourselves is that even if we started in that place of ****** undone.
We can change our motivations, we can change. Now what we choose, we can stop running from something and start heading towards something.
They come to turning point because you can only run away from something for so long before you start running towards something.
Else I think.
And making a conscious decision about what you’re running towards. Otherwise you’re just here or on autopilot running to the next thing, and then you run away.
Yeah, I mean Google thingy.
It’s well, yeah, exactly so. The important thing is that once you’ve run away from what it is that you can no longer bear, you need to actually pause.
You need to take time for yourself. This is for me this is relevant to me. Other people might process things completely differently to me and that’s that’s for them, but for me, I really felt that I needed to actually get myself out of that.
And I needed to take whatever time it took for me to actually connect with what I need and then reform relationships were appropriate because it’s not always appropriate to go back to those relationships either.
I really felt.
That I needed to acknowledge that I’ve actually got the right to feel equally upset about what transpired, you know?
And and not to have to be the pacemaker, because that’s the role that I typically talk. You know, I’ve said that I’ve got stuck in the middle of people fights before, essentially, and that’s because you know I want to be the pacemaker.
I want to be the neutral party will be Switzerland. You know somebody comes in pictures about something? Well, I know right? Hello.
Even Switzerland, not neutral anymore.
Neither am I so they’ve got to the point where I just didn’t want to have someone coming to me and.
******** about the other person and then that other person coming in, but she made that other person. But of course I wouldn’t go and relay those messages to those other people because I didn’t get involved with any of those tiffs or any of those fights.
And really, I didn’t even want them to come pitching to me like I really just wanted to have an equal loving relationship with these people, but.
It’s not something that they were able to offer him towards art.
Not hashtag, good vibes only.
No, it’s not hashtag good vibes only there sadly.
But you know, there’s peacemaking thing needs to come from both sides. You know everybody needs to take ownership.
For what they’ve played in in whatever has happened, I just can’t let public. I said, well, I need to actually be still with myself and address the core issues which you know is not necessarily a quick and easy process, so.
The action you took in that was.
Cutting communication with said parties.
Boom, just even surface space to process things in some clarity around it as well. You know, like I’ve never said that I will never ever speak to this person ever again in my whole life, but also within that.
I’ve also said that you know they need to take responsibility for their part in things as well. I’m not going to walk into conversation and how it pick up exactly where it left off two years ago.
So at some.
Point, you know it’s becoming quite clear that this stalemate that I’ve created for myself is one that could continue, but also is one that I do feel that I need to take some action on that there needs to be something that happens to resolve it one way or another, whether that action is to say, you know, let’s talk this out.
A respectful relationship or whether it in talking things out, it’s decided look you.
Know clearly we.
Have nothing in common other than the accident of our birth as refocus might say, and the action is to say, well, let’s just kind of wish each other well and and living happy life. It’s about kind of, I suppose, a bit of a change in thinking around approach that.
Which I’m kind of starting to kind.
You know the bit of a different angle to have a builder different, think about.
Excellent because we certainly.
Have had a lot of people be able.
To help us with this idea.
About changing our.
Thinking and the work that goes on behind this, including associate Professor, Kimberly Norris of the University of Tasmania.
00:23:44 Speaker 3
Who’s told us that?
The way we think and the action that we take.
Like are closely related.
00:23:54 Kimberley Norris
The thinking around the action actually changes the.
00:23:57 Kimberley Norris
Mood around the action.
I think I just found some motivation die in those shirts.
I think I just found a whole new way to.
Look at the housework.
Instead of hiding it, I could combine all the things that I hate in with my newfound anxiety. Time listed.
00:24:14 Speaker 5
Do it all.
00:24:17 Kimberley Norris
Well, fundamentally what we’re talking about is something that we’ve known for quite some time, which is the way we think affects the way we feel and why we feel affects the way we act.
00:24:28 Kimberley Norris
So if we can, you know press on any one of those three components.
00:24:33 Kimberley Norris
We will affect change in the others.
And founder and.
CEO of Legskin Daphne Capitus uses other peoples words to motivate herself in very pretty.
00:24:42 Daphne Kapetas
I would give them my assignments and they would say, oh, you know who helps you do that because they assumed that being the way I was that I didn’t have brains.
00:24:51 Daphne Kapetas
You see these prejudices. It’s silly, like I didn’t. I didn’t fit in the scientific norm. It’s just silly. It it’s a limit.
Yeah yeah, yeah.
00:24:57 Daphne Kapetas
It’s limiting on their part.
00:24:58 Daphne Kapetas
Not on mine and I.
00:24:59 Daphne Kapetas
Remember, once there was a subject called reaction kinetics, which is physics.
00:25:02 Daphne Kapetas
In chemistry and one of the guys.
00:25:04 Daphne Kapetas
Next to me said.
00:25:04 Daphne Kapetas
Or, you know, will never pass this one. It’s a 15% pass rate. Now that is enough to drive me mad. OK, tell me that I can’t do something.
00:25:14 Daphne Kapetas
And I’d be like I thank you for that. That’s exactly what I needed. I needed you to tell me.
00:25:20 Speaker 3
That I can’t do that now.
00:25:22 Daphne Kapetas
Watch me now. I never go back to the people. I never go back to these people to say. Gee, thanks for that. Because of you I got 95% and I remember lecturer walking in.
00:25:33 Daphne Kapetas
Saint Daphne Dimitriadis reaction kinetics stand up 95%. I blitzed it. I couldn’t believe it but I never told anybody that behind the scenes more brain was haemorrhaging.
Some great words there from Daphne and really, she’s got such a way about, hasn’t she? She’s.
I love dancing’s energy.
00:25:56 Nathan Parker
And I’m going to say that like that.
Whole thing is, well, you’re going to tell.
Me that I can’t do this.
Well, screw you, I’m gonna show you I’m gonna prove.
00:26:01 Speaker 5
I’m gonna throw your own.
You wrong, I think I’ve done that myself a few.
Times from 5.
00:26:06 Speaker 3
It’s like I think.
That’s probably one of my key motivators for things like.
00:26:10 Speaker 3
Actually, my therapist would probably say I’ve spent most of my life trying to prove my father role in some way or another like that.
That that’s been one of the the the major motivators for me prove he’s wrong. Prove I’m worthy of this, or worthy of that.
But you know what?
We’ve been down that path of.
Trauma, so maybe I’ll.
Give you a fresh dump of trauma. This this time instead, like.
Well, yeah like yeah, I mean what?
A new story.
If the person was telling you that you can’t do something, is actually.
00:26:38 Speaker 3
Which is very common.
Especially to me especially.
I mean, I’m sure that a lot of people can relate to this, but that that negative self talk you are your own harshest critic.
You’re the one telling yourself, no, that you can’t do it, that you can’t do things you can’t be who you want to be.
You can’t move how?
You want to live.
There are a lot of reasons that.
You might tell.
Yourself that, but it’s so easy, isn’t it?
So easy to make those excuses and criticise yourself like that and and tell yourself you can’t.
Be or do or have.
What you want?
It’s almost like we recover the evidence, don’t we? We we hear, we suppose we save things in the news. We hear attitude in the Community. Whatever it takes to actually justify not taking action on something.
I’m pretty sure Joe Focus might have been the one that told us that was confirmation bias, right, but we keep finding that stuff around ourselves to support our own hypotheses, even if that hypothesis isn’t true.
And you know.
It can go on for years.
And health like really profound impacts on us at the really base level of who we are and what we actually need.
What it means? I think you’ve had quite the journey with this. You know, since turning.
Fully, haven’t you?
Well, even before turning 40, here’s a concept that I. I mean, I think you’ve heard, but it might not be a common concept.
Compulsory heterosexuality. That’s the idea that when you’re born as you grow up in, assume to be heterosexual. Until otherwise evidenced, I supposed.
And so we as a society make all these sort of sexuality and and gendered assumptions about people and about ourselves. Based on this whole embedded concept of compulsory heterosexuality.
This complied to anybody of any gender no. And note that we haven’t said both genders because there there are more than one gender.
You know, like I think we need to.
Kind of make that.
Pretty clear that that’s our position as well because.
This happens for people of all genders, where they may be same sex attracted there maybe I don’t know they might be Poly amorous.
You know there are things that don’t fit within the typical boy girl love scenario and were assigned gender at birth and are expected to conform to the norms of that gender in societies so.
Headship, compulsory section, controlled from.
Do you know what we call it?
On the Internet.
Compare it and I think it’s for that reason. It’s too long to type and it’s too hard to say.
Absolutely so compare. It shows up really early when you buy a little ball of Dolly and let’s go play mummies and daddies and more than any. Oh, how can we pretend to be your daddy?
Whenever you want me to do.
Tell me that kind of **** you know so.
Well, you tell your little boy that there’s going to be a heartbreaker one day and all the girls are going to swoon as a baby. He’s going to.
Break some hearts.
There was a man in the mothers group once that said to my mom or he’s got such kissable lips.
Second, oh, like 8 years old.
What is she thinking about kissing your lips?
00:29:50 Leeanne Carey
I don’t know both of my.
Lips, yeah, I don’t know. Should we use that as one of the reviews for the podcast?
He’s got great lady.
But kissable lips a James.
Yeah, be creepy, but anyway.
Well, father under things you couldn’t say in 2022 without being cancelled.
What does that feel to comprehend?
I don’t know. It was funny, right?
Anyway, it was.
Funny no, it’s OK. So there’s the basis of things compared, right? So for you when you came out you did struggle like those first early years trying to identify why you weren’t really into women and why you were finding yourself more attracted to men.
Had a girlfriend. The Kissable lips did wanna kiss.
Had a girlfriend that you write love letters too, but.
Yeah, same girlfriend.
00:30:36 Nathan Parker
Not, yeah, not as.
Well, as greater love letters as you wrote to that other dude, see in episode 2 episodes ago for that one.
So for you I that was a strong feeling. You knew that women didn’t fit.
Yeah, I knew within the core of my soul that.
It just wasn’t right.
The difference in that feeling and the feeling that I suppose you get from that kind of compulsory heterosexuality.
Reality, I think that compet is really common in people who are bisexual or pansexual and they don’t know it yet because if you feel so strongly about not being attracted to women, that’s a great indicator that you’re probably not attracted to women. But if someone is a bisexual, they might be occasionally.
Attracted to a woman and attracted to a man and attracted to any other gender. So when compared is a thing you think oh OK. Well I guess I’m not gay because I am attracted to some women.
Yeah, I think.
Really, you know there is a massive shift in thinking that needs to happen where people think in terms of genitalia.
You are simply, you know, like.
Especially, especially your friend with the libs.
You’ve got this, that goes.
With that, thank you, Suzanne.
You know, right? So there’s little room for acknowledgement there that people actually attracted to people, not to genitalia so.
It’s very black and white, kind of.
It is, yeah everybody experiences different with this. So for me not being bio.
Pan I knew that I wasn’t attracted to the opposite sex, so the way that manifested for me which you know isn’t necessarily the way it manifests for everybody.
And some people do actually go down that compared path and take a wife and have children and then 20 years later, actually you know.
And then we go over just bisexual but just bisexual one just bisexualism nothing. It’s actually maybe they are bisexual.
Maybe they suppress their sexuality because they felt that they couldn’t actually do anything. Otherwise, there are all sorts of things that happen psychologically and socially that prevent people from.
Being able to comfortably come out because whatever they are where they need to.
00:32:44 Leeanne Carey
And you know.
It from a female point of view, a female presenting point of view is probably the better way of putting it.
You get told these messages. These societal messages and I think it’s especially prevalent for women and I I really can’t comment on it from a from a male point of.
View, but we almost.
It’s like the patriarchy has set it up so that we the bar for men is so ******* low that we don’t notice.
We’re not all that interested because we think that’s what the best we’re going to get. That’s the best we can we ******* deserve because the bar for them is oh, it’s through the.
Floor low OK. How many women do you hear that aren’t really sexually satisfied by their relationships? It’s part of the expectation. Isn’t it? Like yeah.
Yeah, and also you know. I mean device might just be really bad at sex, but also, you know like what’s behind that lack of enjoyment as well? Like is it that they will actually attracted to them?
Oh yeah, yeah, and.
Again, and this can only come from my perspective as we’re set up with these expect.
Missions of you’ll find a partner and.
You’ll settle down and make yourself nice when he comes home from work and be the doting wife.
OK, and yeah, those were older expectations, but in in my you know generation of born in the 80s and I wasn’t going to settle down and be the doting wife.
But had sued with the body housework.
It’s still up to the woman to carry.
The majority of the housework right shouldn’t be.
When yet, how many women end up doing that because the bath for men is through the ******* floor and I’m struggling to give it a clear definition because it permeates so many things.
So it permeates the ******* fairy tales of the Princess needing to be rescued by a man. He’s done something.
To win her and now she belongs to him. You know, like so many women have ****** sex and she needs sex with their partners because you know you see.
In the whole **** industry is set up even the ******* lesbian **** industry is set.
Up for the.
For the gratification of the man telling the story.
So it’s not. It’s not focused on a woman pleasure, it’s a *******
Yeah, so now guys is.
Pump and dump.
When you, you’re a woman and you’re in a relationship like half the time.
Six ends when he ends.
So women quite are often very unsatisfied sexually because the pump and dump trucking dumps goes to sleep and then start snoring and.
00:35:20 Speaker 5
You’re left there going.
That wasn’t really that great for me.
He’s going to finish this down.
Who’s going to finish this off but?
Hashtag hashtag model men hashtag not all men some of.
00:35:33 Leeanne Carey
Well, but it’s true.
Them are, you know?
My point isn’t that all men are chitat sex. My point is that it’s become. It’s an expectation, it’s something that we’ve internalised through these messages.
That we got.
That’s just how sex is. That’s how relationships are. Even as a ******* strong feminist still holding on to this idea that well.
It’s my responsibility to be a ******* glory hole for *** **** even if I don’t want to have sex.
’cause it’s part of the job and everyone has relationships like that that aren’t that fulfilling. What about the whole?
The whole idea of of orgasm in women like we know that most women don’t orgasm through penetration. It’s through things like clitoral stimulation. And yet all we ever see is all focused on.
Penetration sex is focused on penetration ’cause it’s about.
How women and?
Their bodies can serve men, and so even though do you know what the men ******* know the men so I can know that they have to stimulate the ******** and like.
Cook for men and then they **** it up and then they they try and they push it too hard or they you know I mean.
00:36:49 Leeanne Carey
He need like.
Little markers like little sticky tabs like Bush here.
00:36:51 Speaker 5
It’s not that ******* hot. It’s not ******* hard.
It is not ******* hard.
Because they don’t want to communicate ’cause or or listen or you know ’cause. It’s it’s about their self gratification themselves and the comp head.
Of it all.
Is that women are conditioned to accept.
That and told.
That that’s just how it is we.
Kind of grow up believing that those are the relationships that you have. Well, you’ve got to make.
00:37:18 Daphne Kapetas
A trade off.
This guy is nice. You don’t end up sexually satisfied.
You don’t really all.
That attracted to him, but that’s OK because he’s a nice person and maybe he’d make a nice father for the kids. Or he can provide or something like that.
If you would a here.
You like, oh.
OK, that’s just normal. All these things are normalised these these, this undervaluing of us as women of accepting that relationships are like that.
Like yeah, it’s OK for the woman to date because he’s a nice personality or you know he’ll be a good provide.
00:37:48 Leeanne Carey
Better or or?
Whatever else that might be, even if she’s not attracted to him, even if then their sex isn’t that good.
But he he you know he’s satisfied, so it’s OK and and he chips in the you know, occasionally watches his own ******* kids.
And you know he helps her out with those kind of things. Or he might one day stack the dishwasher. And so I helped you out. Honey, even though she’s doing.
Over housework as well as working a job and doing all the main childcare and it’s all normalised so compact it’s accepted so compact occur.
Yeah, it’s it’s. It’s accepted here.
As well, you don’t think the question that the reason that you find your husband isn’t unappealing ******** is because you’re actually not into ******* men.
We expect everyone feels like that we’re told everyone.
Feels like this.
That aren’t. There’s actually some really nice men out there.
And there are.
Some really happy heterosexual couples out there, you.
Know like this.
Isn’t a problem about bashing heteros or anything.
00:38:44 Speaker 5
Oh no, no.
Like that the.
No, I did get I got on my I got on my high horse because I’ve just thought about all the ****** ******* six I.
People, my own label with.
Pad with sucking pump. You sucking pump.
But this is for size.
And dump me and it can’t find the ********
But this is coming from your perspective as well. In there you know you it really started to dawn on you that actually it wasn’t just a problem with the men in their behaviours, was actually was actually depend on that for you.
Yeah, did I have too much of a shift on men?
Oh, it’s a pretty big shift on men.
So I think.
That the point of my very long winded explanation of compulsory heterosexuality that really just sounds like me shooting on men.
Let us get some tea.
It’s really to point out the fact that so people can be something other than straight for a long time in life and not even realise it because we’re conditioned to expect certain behaviours or and accept certain behaviours. Unless aggressive way of defining that. When I was at school.
And I was first developing crushes on people. I never really felt like many of them were genuine crushes.
I I kind of had a criteria like is this person Nice? Do they have nice eyes you’ll?
Do it’s a bit the same, actually.
Yeah, I’ve gotta go ahead like when the people in European group is talking about who’s hot and who’s not in that kind of thing. You kind of start to formulate opinions around that kind of stuff to actually be in.
With the picra, because he don’t seem different.
Because also you.
Assume that everybody else is kind of thinking a similar way like this is, but like turning into.
Such a graphic.
Episode, but OK, let’s let’s take a penis. For example, right now, like.
If I was to show you a photo.
Of an erect penis.
00:40:32 Leeanne Carey
Would you go?
Alright, that’s good, yeah.
I’m on board. Or would you go?
I don’t get it.
Ah, look, I’ve probably dropped on board a couple.
00:40:46 Speaker 4
It’s it’s sort of the conceptual kind of kind of manner.
You know there’s that whole thing with unsolicited **** **** et cetera, et cetera. And I.
You know, I’ve I’ve been there.
00:40:54 Sally Goldner
Pain of many unsolicited **** ****
Never had any big wins solicited.
I’ve seen many.
An unsolicited **** The thing about it is, is that it is so normalised for that experience to happen to women that if I see * **** *** I go.
And I didn’t realise until I actually was discussing it with one of my friends, the cisgendered woman, how she feels about getting the occasional **** ***
And she also feels like.
She could climb on it occasionally I.
Well, they fighting.
Didn’t realise that it was a feeling of revolution until I discussed it with some.
Fails because I just thought everyone felt that way.
Then did start to condone the practise in any way, because it shouldn’t be done unsolicited, they like.
Only known it never, never, but I mean even a solicit I was. I would never ask someone for * **** *** I don’t really see if I.
Can dig even solicited no.
Move in a quick peek.
I got some tip pics recently though.
No, it make you feel we could leverage.
They were also unsolicited, so I also didn’t want them. Please don’t send unsolicited genitalia in any form.
I I I you know I tried to get onto the other topic and.
I still think.
00:42:02 Leeanne Carey
I’m just ship my Meg now I’m.
Shooting on I’m sitting.
I thank you.
On men sending unsolicited **** ****
If that’s where you need to be, that’s where you need to be.
The point with that is that it wasn’t even a question in my mind. Am I actually attracted to someone other than cisgendered men because I honestly thought everyone felt the way that I felt. I thought that everyone expected sex in relationships to not people that great.
That’s kind of like that whole societal thing that comes from the sexual liberation stuff as well, isn’t it? Now, it’s just.
Give it away whatever.
And I think you know to some extent, we’ve kind of lost the intimacy of that, you know, like looking at prolific pool is now and how people just go and switch onto any of those websites and can get it for free.
Anytime I had to actually get a chair and go to the top of my dad’s covered to see.
Problem when I was.
A teenager and then here.
If we put the tape back in its place so that.
It didn’t work have been disturbed.
00:42:55 Speaker 3
Want to wreck that VCR tape.
Goalkeeper just got chewed up in their heads. How we explained that?
Although, how would the conversation ever come up? Because he certainly would have admitted that he’s altered being chewed up, so you know, we’ll win.
No, we have spoken before on the podcast about.
Me getting to a point where I realised that I wasn’t straight up and how long that took me. I think it was 36 or 37 when I realised that the things that I felt weren’t things that everybody else was feeling. Once I started to discover this idea of comp. Head and.
Really looking to why I felt the way that.
I felt it kind of all unravelled, and.
And then it’s like it shines a light on all your past experiences and you go. OK? Well, that’s why I always said that.
I think that.
Women are more attractive than men and that’s why I always felt uncomfortable. If I was ever with a friend when she was changing and she didn’t feel uncomfortable, right? And I’m like, where should I look? I don’t feel like I should look right.
That’s why I was sad that time that I was at the bar.
In Ballarat and.
These this lovely woman came up and like brought me a drink and then we had a dance and then.
She like said you another drink and I said Jag and Volker Cruiser. And then she came back with a beer with some Raspberry in it.
And then I was.
Like that’s a shame ’cause I thought like maybe we could go home together but not.
She’s going to buy me a beer and then I told that story as a joke, but now I think actually like that’s not something with straight.
People, so do you know what straight people aren’t doing? They’re not.
00:44:31 Speaker 5
Googling, am I gay?
Hey, at 1:00 o’clock in the morning, they’re not.
No, that’s true. Yeah, there’s very few of them doing that.
They’re not on, you know, gave tick Tock going. Why do I keep getting served all these lesbian videos?
00:44:38 Sally Goldner
Invite Tik T.O.K.
Do you not know about lesbian talk and gay top? Oh, we’ll send you down that wasn’t you down that rabbit hole after this, you know.
Bailey tab, it’ll.
Come on, did you mean that people?
We are all thinking these things are we really want all Googling these things? Like if we were shown a whole other light on all these past experiences that I hadn’t even considered from because they were.
There were those emotions, those things that we talked about, the start.
Of the episode.
Was just pushing them down and push them down and pushing it down and just not.
Dealing with it.
Because I don’t even know if I was all that aware of it to be honest ’cause compets a genuine thing and I just thought this is how relationships were and if this is how relationships are then.
I don’t really.
They want them, and so I was never in a big rush to have relationships, and when I’ve had relationships, I’ve tried to make sure that they were people who I got along with more.
And even when I’ve had, you know relationships where I’ve had a lot of sex with the men, I’ve still kind of felt like I, like I have to do this, and so it’s really not until I think.
The last relationship where I was like, I just.
Uh ******** can’t, I’m sucking, I’m ******* done.
He went to that point. It was nothing overrides.
******** cart and I’m ******* done. I’m ******* sick of *****
Literally and figuratively.
So cut to whatever it is 2017. I think it was a marriage equality time and I and I start to have those thoughts and I’m in a relationship.
I’m in a long term relationship with a cisgendered man and it really weighs on me all the time, over and over and I was.
Also suffering from the depression, the anxiety that we’ve spoke about on the show before.
Wasn’t related to that, that was certainly a part of it. Anything where you’re right, you know, hiding your identity from yourself is certainly all the part of it.
It’s bound to crop.
Up with those sorts of things here.
I did get to the point where I just couldn’t stop thinking about it all the time, like he’s asleep at night and I’m dead on my phone on like gay Reddit. Is it normal to feel this?
00:46:51 Leeanne Carey
Way dot dot dot dot dot.
And like I.
Do other people blah blah blah? How do I know? How do I know if I’m gay? How do I tell someone?
And then you go down the I went down the path as well of going on on some of these in the.
Limits forums like.
Have you stayed with your partner after you told them that you were gay because?
It’s like, well, you know I’ve spent a.
Number of years with this.
Yes, and I I love them. I care about them so I don’t really want them out of my life.
And I know that that’s how relationship end and then when that happens that happens. So is it worth keeping it in, holding it in and just staying in this relationship and never exploring that part of myself because?
I can’t discount every interaction that I’ve had with men because as much as I shadowed men earlier in the conversation, there have been some wonderful men that I’ve seen and have had quite fulfilling sexual experiences with the fact that they’re rare is disappoint.
Think, but there have been some and.
I I can’t discount the fact.
That I was very attracted to them.
That was also from that space of compact, though wasn’t it? You know, so I suppose you know where you’re at from turning 37.
The Marriage Equality Survey, that sort of thing that really started to trigger within you. These other feelings he hadn’t acknowledged before.
And you know, there’s that kind of need to explore for you. Then you know whether those other feelings are legitimate, whether they’re actually.
Apart of willing to run away from possibly a relationship that you didn’t want to be anymore, all those sorts of things I think started to.
Culminate, didn’t they?
00:48:28 Speaker 4
You’re preempting the next part of the story though, are you you looked into your first? I was, you, looked into your crystal ball.
Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sure you’re coming to visit.
The next part of that is that eventually it got to the point where I couldn’t not say something about the way that I was feeling about that inside, and I actually I did think at the time.
That partner at the time was. I thought he was supportive in that when he said if it’s something that you want to explore.
Thing you can and we can stay together and I actually felt like that gave me great relief at that time to know that the option was there.
Very big space to kind of.
Feel it was safe to explore.
But I also at that time was depressed for other reasons and really struggling with my mental health for other reasons.
And so even though I had permission, I hope that came across as in commerce, bold and italicised, even.
Though I had.
Uhm, I didn’t because I didn’t have the energy to. I don’t have the energy to look after myself, let alone to bother trying to share any intimacy, emotional or physical, with anybody else.
So it wasn’t.
Until really until we began this process until the force change the change of.
The things that I was.
Running away from, you know, changing changing careers, leaving the circumstances that were were toxic.
Leaving situations behind that weren’t working for me. US looking at starting a business and us starting to put together this podcast that even though I had that permission all that time ago that I actually started to feel better and like I might like to pursue something or that there might be a bigger part of me there.
It feels like I’m missing out than what I was and also questioning that whole permission thing as well, because ******* I don’t need anybody’s permission.
Yeah, ’cause it’s about you. It’s not about them.
00:50:26 Speaker 3
The compact and the male gaze.
Is the idea of giving someone permission starts to feel like and particularly was reinforced by conversations around it? Like if you’re going to go explore your sexuality with other people? Sorry, other women, other cisgendered women, because it was definitely A1 penis policy.
Then am I a part of that? What’s in that for me? And so then that’s actually not about your genuine care of me understanding this part of myself. It’s once again life through the male gaze.
It’s cannot join in you.
I would really like.
Because the one pianist policy right, it’s this idea. That or you can go sleep with anybody else.
But only one penises.
And I’m like, but if it’s true if it’s true to say that you can be in a relationship and then like many Poly amorous or open relationship couples do set healthy boundaries. If if it’s true to say that you could explore your sexuality.
Outside of this current relationship and set up systems of trust and.
00:51:33 Kimberley Norris
Blah blah blah.
Blah blah, then the quarter of penises shouldn’t matter. You should actually be free to explore your sexuality with whomever you want, so putting the peenis quota on it, anybody as long?
As I don’t have a penis, yeah.
It should be completely genitalia neutral.
It means that it was never about helping someone you care about. It was all about.
Maybe this will.
Lead to something for me like a threesome.
Or I can watch.
Yeah, hot so that really was a boundary that you weren’t prepared to cross though, isn’t it?
No, because then it wouldn’t have been about me and exploring something. For me. It would have been again something for someone else in the relationship because.
Compared because society told me that I had to give him something for me to have anything for me.
That’s right, nothing for you without something for him.
When I started actively working on my mental health, I got to a point where I realised that I wasn’t feeling bad about a lot of things anymore.
I wasn’t really depressed around the work stuff. I wasn’t feeling depressed around stuff that we were doing in our business that working, making content, or in making friends.
Or any of those things, but the area that kept falling down was in terms of sexuality and relationship.
Because when I first started seeing a psychologist when I first started to actually get help and take medication for my depression, she did say do you want to discuss your relationship and I said I don’t want to make any decisions based on how I feel now. ’cause I’m worried that I’ll throw the baby out with the bathwater and ’cause I do believe.
Things can change when you change the way that you feel about them, and that may be things that seem like not healthy or or problems.
If I was feeling better in general, then you know maybe there wouldn’t be so many arguments. Maybe I’d feel like I might feel like having sex in my relationship. Those things might.
There will be such an issue here.
Not make an issue.
If I can get myself into a place where I feel better than.
I could, you know, make an informed decision.
And see if that fixes it.
As soon as I started to do the work of feeling better and started to feel better in all those other things.
Really became apparent that it wasn’t me.
Then he started to get a better understanding of.
Yourself and what you needed. Then it became patently.
Clear that you.
Weren’t the issue.
I mean, I’m still plenty of issues, but in in that particular.
00:53:59 Sally Goldner
Well, I thought.
Was the issue at hand like the issue that you were looking at it thinking? Was the problem wasn’t actually the.
Issue that was the problem.
And some of those times when.
I started to feel better.
And then was questioning whether it’s the fact that I’m in a relationship with a man, or if it’s the fact that I’m in a relationship that’s not working.
That’s not healthy. I don’t know which one.
It was and.
So there are little nights where instead.
Of Googling am I gay?
At 1:00 in the morning, when I switched to Googling and my pretending to be gay because I just don’t want to be in a relationship any.
Am I trying to convince myself that I’m gay as an excuse to leave a relationship?
I’m kind of guessing the answers on that thread models linked to the same place.
As the other one, what unsolicited **** ****
Well, the question of am I gay?
Do you think that straight people is?
Sitting up late at.
Night Googling, am I pretending to be gay to?
00:55:00 Speaker 5
Get out of a relationship.
00:55:02 Speaker 3
So after I was.
Advised by strangers on the Internet that I am in fact not Googling something commonly googled by straight people.
I think that that voice, just it it got too loud and it it got so loud that the UN attraction I felt towards a cisgendered male. All of that I I I got to a point where on my 40th birthday I imploded.
Instead of having a good birthday in the car on the way home from my birthday lunch, arguing with my partner at the time and telling him that I think that maybe I’m gayer than you think I am.
Did you pull out the Kinsey scale, Alfred?
Should we put?
The Kinsey scale in the show notes.
Maybe we should anyone who’s curious.
Yeah, so so that conversation in the car on the way home from my birthday. It was I. I don’t know if I can do this anymore because I don’t know if I’m lying to you and lying to me. If maybe the fact that I don’t feel that this is.
Working myself, I don’t feel happy. The fact that I don’t feel attracted if it means that in fact that I’m not interested in cisgendered men at all, and that was a hard conversation to have because.
’cause I was very scared of leaving that relationship because it was something that I’d invested.
A lot of time.
In and invested a lot of money and it was.
Sunk cost fallacy.
Some cost phallus.
Sunk cost fallacy.
00:56:51 Leeanne Carey
Can we put that in the?
Quote for the episode.
So yeah, so Louise and Andy talk about sunk cost fallacy. In today’s episode, every frame of mind.
And what that would mean for me if that relationship was to end, because you know, it had been five years or so we were in the process of of setting up our business.
And this was all I was doing financially for an income. There was no support network of another job, there was just.
You may now super rules in separate states finding something.
And and my credit card and my savings.
And they were slowly going up and down at the same time and not in the good way. So if I put this out there and I, and this caused that relationship to end, and then I take on all those costs of the household on my own. And what does that mean for us?
Yeah, it said that there was a massive risk, but you know, I think also from a perspective. I think you kind of realised pretty well that you couldn’t just base your situation on that alone. Hey, you know, like you needed to actually be true to yourself.
As far as what you need is personally.
Yeah, I jump back on the Internet where all my anonymous friends are on my birth, death and 1:00 AM community and well, this is the comment that I I wrote on my birthday.
A little bit of community.
I turned 40 today and for some reason after I left lunch with my friends when my cishet male partner and I were driving home, we got talking about sex first love.
He previously told me if I’d wanted to explore my sexuality. I could. I only started to admit to myself that I was paying a couple of years ago and rarely mentioned it in real life.
I feel like I don’t get to belong in LGBT spaces when I haven’t had the experience of dating anyone other than SIS men.
And even though I.
Had permission to explore. I hadn’t done it because I felt like that would be cheating because I want an emotional connexion as well.
Then he said.
It’s OK if you’re gay, you know.
And it all flooded out all the times I sit here, wondering if.
I’m more gay than.
I admit the fact that I haven’t been interested in a sexual relationship with him in years, wondering if any of my relationships with.
Men have been.
Anything other than compared and if it turns out that I am how it will change my life and how we’ll have to set him free because it’s not fair just to keep him around as a backup plan.
So I guess it’s true what people say about turning 40, gaining self confidence and caring less about what other people think Lol I don’t.
Know what’s next?
But it feels like relief.
It’s a pretty powerful place for 40th birthday.
We don’t know, we don’t.
No, no glass sucker didn’t even.
Like we don’t.
Get me a cake.
I had to go pick my own birthday present to.
Like I mean, I know.
It’s self serve birthday.
00:59:40 Kimberley Norris
Look, let’s put it.
Like this at that point, when I posted that I actually.
Thought Oh no.
It’s going to be really sad in the.
Relationship and since.
Having ended the relationship total total mindset.
Ending not so great so.
I’m very happy to have ended the relationship.
Things work out, you know. It was it difficult for you to hear people kind of reflecting back to you in those forums that honey, honey straight people don’t ask those questions.
Not difficult, but more that I felt like I was.
Making it up that I mix.
Graduating, especially having had no relationships with anybody that wasn’t a SIS man as well like yeah, so even now that I haven’t been in a relationship with somebody for probably six months, I I still think I’m I’m making it up because I’m not really interested in being in a relationship with anybody. Currently, I’m in a process of healing, I suppose.
But I’m certainly not interested in dating sis man.
01:00:32 Speaker 3
01:00:34 Leeanne Carey
I’ll tell you that.
01:00:35 Speaker 3
When you when?
You’re ready to explore. There’s going to be.
A lot of glitter.
There’s going to be Louise is sexy. Flooding times.
Yeah, yeah, I’ll hand over the baton so it’s been gathering dust for so long.
Oh, thank you.
So when it comes down to the changes that you did make as a result of everything you were feeling, everything that correlated, I’ll ask you the same question you asked me. Do you feel like you were running away from something running towards something?
Away absolutely yes, absolutely. Yeah. I wasn’t making conscious choice. I wasn’t choosing to run towards something. I was letting it build up until it imploded and till I was backed into an I just ******* can’t live like this anymore. I just ******* can’t not.
Be authentic, I just ******* can’t go through another day without saying these things to hell with the consequences because it might kill me if I don’t ******* say it and I just ******* can’t do another 50 years of my life in this situation.
Without actually ever knowing the answer, because even if I thought I was making it up at at least owed myself the chance to find out so no, all of that choice was made for.
I just ******* can’t.
Not have possibility out of hope out of going towards something.
The truth catches up with this in the end. You know that’s that’s what happened, isn’t it? You know this is what therapy sessions are based on that you know, we kind of come to our crew from need to find a way to kind of actually deal with that and to actually learn to say the things for ourselves that we need to say. So sometimes those things are hard to say, and sometimes they’re hard.
To hear though, but.
Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t say them.
You know there’s a job bomb to go with everything from the sciences. Professor Joe focus from the University of New South Wales. When we spoke to him. You’ve really made us question our.
Own thoughts about what is?
And isn’t acceptable for other people to say.
01:02:28 Joe Forgas
I think speech should not ever be regulated and suppressed because speech is the medium. Thereby people express their beliefs and their values and however much you disagree with it. If you want them to change, you got to hear it. You will not change them if you.
01:02:47 Joe Forgas
Prohibited and that’s why I think a lot of the current trends of political correctness and work and cancer culture a totally counterproductive, because if you start regulating speech and you will create speech with.
01:03:04 Joe Forgas
Actually, action and behaviour, which might be criminally punishable. You stop all possibility of social progress and discourse. We have to be able to hear what anybody thinks, even if you disagree with it and there are actually in liberal democracies very few examples up to this point or states.
01:03:24 Joe Forgas
Trying to regulate speech, I mean, one example I can think of in Germany. You are not allowed to be a Holocaust denier in Canada.
01:03:33 Joe Forgas
Jordan Peterson has been on the record for objecting for complied speech where people have to use particular personal pronouns.
01:03:42 Joe Forgas
I personally would be a libertarian. I think all forms of speech, even Holocaust denial, should be allowed so we can debate it and know about it and do something about it.
01:03:54 Joe Forgas
Suppressing speech is never the solution to solve any problem.
So if someone says something that.
You don’t want to hear.
Your partner tells you.
That they wonder if they might be more gay than you thought they would be. After five years of a relationship.
Or a family member says that you actively ship around a particular.
Period of time.
Where’s the line at how much you?
But acceptable, and it definitely doesn’t mean that we should accept any malicious language. You know that for Q2 stands only problem get to in these situations, as hard as they are. They do serve to remove us from a bad situation in the short term, but you know what that still needs to be process we? We can’t just keep the extent going.
Have to hear.
Some sustainable forever so you know, like I was saying earlier in the episode where those conversations about that time when my dad died, the conversations that I had with one of my relatives was hard to hear.
Some of the issues they had with me, but I listened. I was prepared to listen and and to give the flip side of that was that when I attempted to be heard.
Myself, I was shut down with them. Too old for this **** so you know that was just put that regular old expectation that the grievances have been and therefore things can just go back to normal and we can just pretend it didn’t happen, which wasn’t going to happen.
And I mean in that situation for me when I finally said the things that I needed to say, I actually did.
I felt like I was heard it.
Wasn’t until later.
That I felt like I was unheard. You know, then, it became obvious that I was only ever told the words that they thought I wanted to hear.
For their own gain.
It’s always about their own game. This same with mine like. OK, so we’ve had this conversation. Let’s shut it down now and therefore we can.
It’s all good. My relationship didn’t end on my 40th birthday. It didn’t end for another couple of months.
And the sexuality wasn’t the trigger in the end that it wasn’t the thing that pulled the trigger, so that’s a whole other story.
01:05:50 Speaker 3
With this thing about using your voice, though, is that you know, I think we we we go in in good faith to have these conversations to say look, you know we need to actually make this right.
So from my point of view, like I didn’t expect to land in a position of feeling like.
A naughty child and we should.
Well, that’s kind of where I shut them out and to some extent I still shut them out because you know, by not having that full two way conversation about everything that happened.
The only normal that happens is me acquiescing turning their line. You know my needs and boundaries are ignored, not met and for them everything is fine. Of course there’s are, but that’s not how it’s not.
It should be and it really does take that goodwill on both sides to actually come in. Listen to each other.
Have a normal conversation and then take responsibility for their own part in that so that things can actually heal.
But if it’s unbalanced, then that’s just going to go back into those old patterns that are unhealthy. Can we stop ourselves from having those conversations because they feel like they’re gonna hurt so much?
It’s so uncomfortable, so when it comes to making decisions and having conversations that we need to and we just too focused on short term pain.
Well, somebody who gave us a really good perspective on that is Professor Eteson AC.
She’s the director.
Of the Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and substance use.
01:07:10 Maree Teesson
Harder that balance of balancing out with you. Make one choice or another is tide up in short term and long term so the lolly can be really gratifying in the short term.
01:07:22 Maree Teesson
But we know we’re going to be putting on weight or we’re going to be increasing the risk of having tooth decay or increasing.
01:07:30 Maree Teesson
The risk of longer term heart disease.
01:07:33 Maree Teesson
We do often think about what’s right up in front of us and then discount what the consequences could be longer term.
01:07:41 Maree Teesson
So one of the things is actually writing it down and acknowledging that they’re a short term, and that there are longer term consequences to what we do. We are incredibly clever as humans.
01:07:53 Maree Teesson
At discounting those longer term, it’s like we’re sort of inbuilt bravery machines. We look at the up front.
01:08:00 Maree Teesson
And we don’t think about the longer term and sometimes the more serious harms and our brains are wired with that.
01:08:07 Maree Teesson
So it’s a challenge to make sure that we identify those and take those into consideration when we’re making our choices.
Tours of the.
Day Jesus told thing, thinking that you think yeah.
01:08:17 Maree Teesson
Yeah, that type of long term thinking that’s exactly great example, you got the chocolate box there. I’ll put it off, I’ll I’ll have it today, but I’ll put off the chain.
01:08:27 Maree Teesson
Much to tomorrow, I think that comes back to where it’s a good idea of thinking about what are the good things about doing that.
01:08:35 Maree Teesson
You’re gonna get the initial gratification, but it maybe not. Some of the good things about doing that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. You’ll have to do if it’s eating that chocolate bar. The humiliation of that sugar.
01:08:47 Maree Teesson
Will then end up. You’ll have to do a lot of extra space in order to counter that, so it’s being really explicit about the decision isn’t.
01:08:55 Maree Teesson
Just about what’s happening to you right now. The decision is also about what’s going to happen in next week, when every day you eat that chocolate bar reminds.
Me of that is.
Is it the marshmallow experiment where they put the marshmallows in front of the kids in a room and said you can either have one now?
Or you can have.
Five if you wait 15 minutes and.
No, and and.
No one could wait 15 minutes, I think.
01:09:18 Maree Teesson
That’s so true. I and kids kids are really good but cheap, so kids are hard wired to get those marshmallows early.
01:09:22 Speaker 5
Let me type.
01:09:28 Maree Teesson
And that kids.
01:09:29 Maree Teesson
You know they’re part of their brain, but should kick in and allow them to do all this decision or work the the front part of the brain.
01:09:36 Maree Teesson
The prefrontal cortex isn’t well developed, so it absolutely they’re they’re really wired for taking risks and you actually want them to. You want them experience lots of things in life.
01:09:48 Maree Teesson
That’s why kids particularly have trouble with that marshmallow experience.
01:09:51 Maree Teesson
Adults we are a bit more brain development. We should be able to kick into gear that that decision part of our brain.
If we intellectually know that we’re better off waiting for 15 marshmallows later instead of 1 Marshmallow now, or if we’re better off, you know, making a healthier choice because alcohol drugs are not doing good stuff for us in the long term, but we emotionally go for the one marshmallow or the booze. How do we switch that thinking like?
Is there steps that we can take that actually help us make those long term goals, something that we?
We can feel like we’re achieving now.
01:10:25 Maree Teesson
It’s emotionally and it’s also through habit, so we are also excellent at picking up cues and habit. And the things that we would normally do so part of the way of dealing with this is creating some new habits, so the habit might be that you have two or three or four glasses of wine, even two glasses.
01:10:45 Maree Teesson
Wine in the evening. Maybe you have a glass of wine and a glass of water. You get into the habit.
01:10:50 Maree Teesson
Always having a glass of water in between having the glass of wine, so part of it is fun learning and then learning new healthier habits so that they become and practising them so they become really second nature. Having a break in and allowing yourself to have a break from alcohol particularly.
01:11:11 Maree Teesson
Over, you know setting a time for having that break allows you to experience how you feel without actually having it, so again breaking that habit and breaking that you know expectation. So it’s very much thinking through ways to both.
01:11:27 Maree Teesson
Allow you to change that behaviour, but also to allow you to change the way that you think about things and to challenge some of those thoughts that you might think.
01:11:35 Maree Teesson
The only way that you can have fun is by drinking or the only way that you can have fun or interacted a party is by drinking. It’s a really interesting experiment to go to a party and test that out.
01:11:47 Maree Teesson
Actually have fun at a party without drinking. Now I’m making this sound like it’s super easy and it isn’t and it takes.
01:11:54 Maree Teesson
As much practise as it takes as we talked about earlier to change your thinking and change the way that you talk about things, that’s really simple.
01:12:04 Maree Teesson
Example of should to change behaviour takes as much practise in and is effortful like it is with the short example.
Changing your thinking.
Is effortful, uh, making change on purpose requires a decent motivation so that you don’t run from something, and you can actually run to something.
It takes the commitment to actually see it through as well.
You know, like you know.
I’ve talked about how I’ve sat with this for.
Probably close to two years now.
And if that’s not convenient, I don’t know what it is, but also it’s not a commitment to say thank you, go away.
It’s actually a commitment from me to say, well, I’m going to have a look at myself. I’m going to actually remove myself from this situation so that I don’t hurt myself anymore with it, but also to actually evaluate what my best.
’cause even if we’ve made that decision out of a place of ****** undone and running from something, we can.
Change the motivation going forward and and bring it back around to something that’s probably more healthy for us, like 2021.
Australian of the Year. Nathan Parker did when he spoke to us. He’d been in a bus crash.
His arm was amputated, and.
From the dream of being a pile.
Of oh, never.
Ever loved him?
01:13:17 Nathan Parker
I guess I was lucky that it sort of became really apparent when I had that crossroads. It was I I could stay in the military and do another job which would have been an incredible experience and opportunity. But for me I I already felt at that point.
01:13:29 Nathan Parker
Must that childhood dream twice and I couldn’t afford to sort of walk away at the end of the day when the chips are down.
01:13:34 Nathan Parker
I couldn’t walk away from flying without sort of working out what was possible ’cause I had this this gut feeling deep down, but I knew in 1015 years time I’d be kicking myself that I I didn’t give it a shot and see what was possible. So familiar is very obvious that at that point in time at that crossroads.
01:13:50 Nathan Parker
There’s a very strong pull towards that. You need to give this a go and and given that you’ve already potentially lost it twice over, give it one last shot.
01:13:57 Nathan Parker
And and say.
01:13:57 Nathan Parker
It is possible, but I think it’s definitely challenging.
01:14:00 Nathan Parker
It’s it’s taking these days with so many different things that are going on for so many of us it’s it’s hard to narrow down what is it that we’re passionate about and and how do we find our passion?
01:14:08 Nathan Parker
How we pursue our passion and that’s something that I’ve been very lucky throughout my life to have.
01:14:12 Nathan Parker
Had a very clear passion from the start.
Is that what fueled you when people said that you won’t fly again? It’s so it wasn’t so much.
01:14:20 Leeanne Carey
01:14:20 Nathan Parker
Wrong, but following your own gut on that that they were wrong. Yeah, I think for me it was about seeing what was possible or I knew deep down I had a sense deep down that I think I can still do this and I was very lucky along the way to have so many incredible people giving opportunities to try. And so it was possible. But I mean even thinking back to my hospital room.
01:14:41 Nathan Parker
One of the first things that went up.
01:14:42 Nathan Parker
On the wall in my room was a picture of the the fighter jet that I had always hoped to fly, and even in those tough times when it was, I’m struggling to put food in my mouth.
01:14:50 Nathan Parker
You know, with only one hand, I look at that and saying, you know, I’ve I’ve.
01:14:54 Nathan Parker
Really do this.
01:14:54 Nathan Parker
To start moving towards that goal, and there’s no guarantees that I’d.
01:14:57 Nathan Parker
Get back there.
01:14:57 Nathan Parker
And unfortunately I wasn’t able to to pursue that dream in the long run. But at that point in time that.
01:15:02 Nathan Parker
That passion, that dream, and that that goal gave me that inspiration and motivation to to keep pushing through. No.
01:15:08 Nathan Parker
Matter how hard things got.
So what I find really amazing about that is that if I was Nathan, I think I would have gone socket. I’m going to be a fighter pilot anyway to prove them wrong.
But he didn’t do it to prove them wrong. He did it because he had that feeling that he was moving towards something that it was right.
That base feeling with himself that this is actually what is really important to me, and if there is another way to get that, then I will do that.
So where does that leave?
Us on our personal stories.
I’ve been I’ve opened a can of worms and we can’t make it through.
I well, the truth is the answer.
To that question is.
Like where humans influx, there’s no perfect ending here. We don’t get to the end of this and and and the stories all wrapped.
Up and it had a.
Happy ending and it was all worth it in the end.
And we’ve achieved this massive thing of clarity. I mean with ******* humans trying to figure it out as we go and make healthier choices that benefit us in the long run.
But those situations aren’t resolved. You’re not friends with the family again, and I’m not friends with the ex. So woo.
01:16:25 Leeanne Carey
Yeah, I don’t know.
There are different things that come up through life.
You know well, there’s something at stake, you know?
And I guess we really just need to like Nathan, think about what it is that we actually want, what’s important to us so you know where we can actually be forced into change and run away from something that we just don’t like anymore.
Or there’s really just kind of ground us down for so long when we actually identify what it is that we do want to make a commitment to, that that’s when.
We can really get some energy behind.
It even if we don’t have the answers to where to.
Now I think what’s really clear is that our commitment makes a difference to where we’re headed, how important it is to us, and what we’re prepared to do to get there.
So next time on re frame of mind, how about Richard to someone whose personal story is testament to staying true to your commitment.
Yeah, definitely we have New Zealand professional, endurance athlete author and winesett expert Lisa Tamati.
01:17:18 Kimberley Norris
So I went all in and it nearly brought me.
01:17:21 Speaker 5
I had my own health dramas that I went through in that period of time because I just blue myself to pieces, but.
01:17:27 Sally Goldner
I got my mum worked.
You’ve been hearing our story. Now we really want.
To hear yours.
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01:17:36 Speaker 5
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