Reframe of Mind

Episode 23: What Motivates Change?

Do we have to wait til we hit the 'I'm f**king done' moment before we act?

Andy Le Roy & Louise Poole, Reframe of Mind Hosts

What motivates our desires for change? Are we moving towards something we do want or are we moving away from something we don’t want?


In this episode of Reframe of Mind, Louise & Andy talk about the motivation to change and how to know when it’s time for a change.


Do we have to wait til we hit the ‘I’m f**king done’ moment before we act?


We take an honest look at some of our personal experiences, with the help of some expert guests, to uncover if we’ve ever really made a deliberate choice to change or if the motivations for change have more often come from a place of ‘I just can’t do this anymore’.


We’ll also discuss what changes you can make in your life now that will help you later on down the road and find out just how important it is for us to know our own motivations so that when change is forced upon us—like when someone dies or we lose a job—we’re ready for it.


This episode features advice and commentary from Professor Leeanne Carey, world leading Australian neuroscientist in occupational therapy and stroke rehabilitation and recovery research at the Florey Institute; Associate Professor Kimberley Norris, School of Psychological Sciences, University of Tasmania; Professor Maree Teesson AC, Director of The Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and Substance Use; Daphne Kapetas, CEO, Founder & Chemist of La Joie Skin; Sally Goldner AM, Diversity Trans re-lator, speaker and educator; And 2021 NSW Young Australian of the Year Nathan Parker.

You can connect with Louise & Andy on Reframe of Mind’s social media directly below:

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Reframe of Mind contains discussion around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. If you are concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice. 


Some of the main crisis lines in Australia are listed on our Mental Health Crisis Resources page, including those that operate 24/7 like Beyond Blue and Lifeline.

Guests this episode:


Professor Leeanne Carey

World-leading Australian neuroscientist in occupational therapy and stroke rehabilitation and recovery research.


Sally Goldner AM

Diversity trans-relator, educator, life coach, speaker and consultant. 


Daphne Kapetas

Founder and CEO of LAJOIE SKIN, qualified and experienced chemist, marketer with a passion for sustainability and the dance floor.


Professor Maree Teesson AC

Australian expert on mental health, Director of The Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and Substance Use, Principal Research Fellow at the University of Sydney.


Associate Professor Kimberley Norris

Associate Head of Learning and Teaching in Psychology, Director of Postgraduate Professional Training Programs in Counselling and Psychology.


Scientia Professor Joe Forgas AM

Australian social psychologist, currently Scientia Professor at the University of New South Wales, Sydney.


Nathan Parker

Pilot, mentor and motivational speaker with an inspiring story and message of resilience.

Show Notes:

Here’s some extra things you might not know about our guests, as well as some of the things mentioned during the episode.

Professor Leeanne Carey

Leeanne is an occupational therapist and neuroscientist and is recognised as a world leader in the science of occupational therapy, evidence-based rehabilitation, and translation of neuroscience to stroke rehabilitation. 


Her program of research spans 30 years and focuses on five main areas: 


(i) Restorative approaches to stroke rehabilitation. (ii) Translation and implementation of evidence-based practice. 

(iii) Nature of sensorimotor impairment and impact on function. 

(iv) Targeting of rehabilitation through novel brain imaging and biomarkers. 

(v) Impact of depression and cognition on stroke recovery and participation. 


Her research is new and original, and represents a shift in rehabilitation focus.

Leeanne talks about her approach to helping stroke patients regain their sense of touch in the video below:

Nathan Parker

NSW Young Australian of the Year, Nathan Parker dreamt of becoming a fighter pilot for the Royal Australian Air Force from the time he turned six. He was on the way to that dream when a bus accident left him severely injured resulting in the amputation of his left hand. Nathan was the first upper-limb amputee in the history of the Australian Defence Force Academy to complete his final 12 months and graduate, and has since represented Australia in sports bringing home gold at the Invictus Games.

With the aid of his bionic arm, Nathan reached his goal of becoming a pilot, and now teaches others to fly as well.


Listen to Nathan’s full length episode of Reframe of Mind below:

Scientia Professor Joe Forgas AM

Awards & Fellowships:

  • Order of Australia, AM (2012)
  • Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award, APA.
  • The Rockefeller Foundation Fellowship
  • Special Investigator Award, Australian Research Council
  • Australian Research Council Professorial Fellowship
  • Alexander von Humboldt Research Prize, Germany
  • Academy of the Social Sciences in Australia
  • American Psychological Society 
  • Society for Personality and Social Psychology
  • Hungarian Academy of Sciences 

Joe Forgas’ official University page

List of publications

Books on Goodreads

Video on Joe’s personal history of escaping communist Hungary

Joe delivers some hard hitting facts in what we’ve affectionately called “Joe Bombs” in Episode 5 – How To Be OK With Who You Are:

Listen to our conversation with Sally in Episode 10 – Who Is Sally Goldner?

Professor Maree Teesson AC

Professor Maree Teesson AC is Director of the Matilda Centre, Director of the NHMRC Centre of Research Excellence in Prevention and Early Intervention in Mental Illness and Substance Use, and an NHMRC Leadership Fellow at the University of Sydney.  She is a Former National Mental Health Commissioner, an Australian Academy of Health and Medical Sciences Fellow, a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Social Sciences and is the Chair of Australia’s Mental Health Think Tank. She was announced as a Companion of the Order of Australia in 2018 Honours List, awarded a Westpac/Australian Financial Review 100 Women of Influence for Innovation, and awarded an Australian Museum Eureka Prize as Outstanding Mentor of Young Researchers.

Maree has made a major contribution to Australia’s health and medical research effort in the field of mental health and substance use. In particular, she is known nationally and internationally for her research on the comorbidity between mental health and substance use disorders.

The Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and Substance Use is a multidisciplinary research centre committed to improving the health and wellbeing of people affected by co-occurring substance use and mental disorders. It was established in 2018, and aims to generate innovative and workable solutions to address substance use and mental disorders, which are currently the leading global causes of burden and disease in young people.

“Drugs and Alcohol: what you need to know”

For more resources on Mental Health check out the Matilda Centre website

Watch a Matilda Centre playlist of short explainers on mental health, comorbidities, substance use and more:

Watch a conversation from University of Sydney mental health experts, moderated by Maree, about young people and mental health:

During the interview Maree spoke about the Cracks in the Ice program. There are many tool kits available online and downloadable booklets on their website.

Here is a playlist of webinars from the program:

Maree talks about Mental Health and Addiction in Episode 14:

Daphne Kapetas

Daphne Kapetas is the founder and CEO of LAJOIE SKIN, and has been working in the industry as a Chemist for thirty years. Daphne’s can-do attitude is grounded in belief in herself with a large sense of humour.

She has competed in “Tough Mudder”, is learning to pole dance and when we met her, was learning how to skin the cat which is an acrobatic term we’ll let her explain.

Having grown up in a Greek family and lost her father when she was studying her HSC, Daphne learned some great techniques to get her through tough times. We know you’ll enjoy hearing what she has to say as much as we enjoyed talking with her.

Check out Daphne’s website:


You can also follow her on social media:



Some things Daphne mentioned you might be curious about:

7 Habits For Highly Effective People

Feel The Fear And Do It Anyway

Skinning The Cat

Meanwhile, Calmmé anti-chafe and soothing cream was awarded Amazon Choice product this year in the US, which is sensational. 


Daphne was also included in a Huffpost article:

What it’s like to be a beauty influencer over that age of 45. 


Transcript has been auto-generated and may contain errors. Your support on our patreon would go towards being able to provide a human-edited transcript for accessibility.




We acknowledge the Yuggera and Kaurna nations as traditional custodians of the land on which we work, live and learn, and their continuing connection with the land waters and community. 


We pay our respects to them and their elders past and present. 


All content related to this program is for general informational purposes only and contains stories and discussions around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. 


If you’re concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice and support. 


More details are contained in our show notes. 





Interrogator: Fresh out of their latest talk series after their sweeping win at the Angsty awards this year, Toxic Positivity joins us to talk about all things motivational and their talk show, Just Get It Done. Here’s a clip from their show


Cut to clip of TP speaking in a large room, addressing their audience


TP: I used to feel like I couldn’t, but then I decided to feel like I could! 


FX: Whoop from the audience


TP: I used to hate mornings, but now I choose good vibes only!


FX: A “yeah” from the audience


TP: I used to feel bad about my life, then I told myself other people have it worse… JUST. GET. IT. DONE!

FX: Audience erupts with applause, fade to studio interview


Interrogator: Toxic Positivity, welcome, it’s been a while since we chatted. You’ve been busy spreading your good vibes around!


TP: Yes Interrogator. As you can hear from the clip of my latest talk series, Just Get It Done, people are motivated by my message


Interrogator: You talk about this notion of choice, of just getting in there and getting it done. Is it really as simple as that?


TP: Everyone’s got a choice, Interrogator. That moment I chose to JUST GET IT DONE was a real  game changer for me. 


Interrogator: It sounds like you’ve landed on a magic pill there. So is it about changing the belief? Is there a process behind that? 


TP: Change the belief? Just make a different choice! JUST GET IT DONE! I literally took myself by the collar one day in front of the mirror and said “Toxic Positivity, you just need to believe you can”


Interrogator: But what was the actual process? There must be something you did?


TP: No! I just made a choice. Everyone has choices, Interrogator, and if you choose good vibes only, that’s what you get!


Interrogator: So do you believe that everyone can just choose to be happy?


TP: One hundred per cent!


Interrogator: So, what about people who are in situations they didn’t choose? Underpaid workers, for example?


TP: Choose to get a better job – JUST GET IT DONE!


Interrogator: Rising rents and housing affordability


TP: Stop renting. Choose to buy your own house – the avocado toast will still be there when you’ve paid it off!


Interrogator: What about people who’ve lost everything because of climate related floods or fires?

TP: A great example! They’ve still got their health! THey can choose to rebuild! JUST GET IT DONE!


Interrogator: But people died in those floods and fires.


TP: Look, I’m not claiming to solve all the world’s problems, but I can say that I’ve turned my life around


Interrogator: RIght, so your talk JUST GET IT DONE! is all about that, but there have been reports about things being toxic behind the scenes despite its good vibes only approach


TP: It was their choice to be negative when they KNEW we’re a good vibes only show


Interrogator: So how did you address their actual concerns about harassment and misconduct?


TP: In the end, we had to JUST GET IT DONE! We’ve got people with the right attitude working in the team now who know what happens if they don’t choose good vibes only


Interrogator: Sexual harrassment?


TP: I choose to be flattered when someone whistles at me


Interrogator: Some of them said they were bullied and unfairly managed


TP: You know me, Interrogator, it’s all about choice, and they chose to have an issue with my feedback, and as it turns out, there are plenty of other people, who really love working on this show


Interrogator: So what happened to those employees that flagged issues?


TP: All the staff involved have each made a better choice for themselves and decided to work somewhere else. In the end, they JUST GOT IT DONE. Good vibes only!


Louise & Andy converse

00:03:56 Andy 

Choice hey how much of that easy hours to make and how? 

00:04:00 Andy 

Much of it is forced upon us. 

00:04:01 Louise 

This is Reframe of Mind 

00:04:03 Louise 

Is re frame of mind. 

00:04:05 Andy 

Where we deep dive into discussions about mental health, joined by some of Australia’s leading lines to expand our understanding of the world and ourselves. 

00:04:13 Louise 

Because we don’t exist in a vacuum and the way we talk about mental health shouldn’t either. 




00:04:17 Louise 

Well, your hosts Louise Poole and Andy Le Roy. 

00:04:20 Andy 

This question of deliberate change versus force changes really caught us analysing our past choices. 

00:04:26 Andy 

I’m wondering if we’ve ever really been. 

00:04:27 Andy 

Motivated to make a change or if. 

00:04:29 Andy 

The changes that we’ve made have been reactive. 

00:04:31 Louise 

Yeah, we’ve got to this point. A couple of episodes ago actually, where we realised that so many of these big decisions we’ve made throughout our lives, they kind of came about because we felt backed into a corner. 

00:04:40 Andy 

Yeah, it’s that I’m freaking done moment, which I think is. 

00:04:44 Andy 

What we live with. 


00:04:48 Louise 

I’m done with. 

00:04:50 Louise 

It’s also known as the I just ******* can’t anymore. 



00:04:57 Louise 

I’m so done with this **** moment. 

00:05:00 Andy 

I need to change something needs to change. 

00:05:04 Louise 

Yeah, it’s that situation where we’ve been ignoring something or pushing aside our feelings about something or the circumstances, and it builds and it builds and it builds until you hit that overwhelm and you can’t deal with it anymore. So explodes or implodes. 

00:05:21 Louise 

And it kind of forces you into. 

00:05:22 Louise 

Making some kind of change. 

00:05:24 Andy 

Like one of. 

00:05:24 Andy 

Those firefighters that just sprays its contents all over the straits. 

00:05:28 Louise 

Been a few episodes since you’ve had an analogy like that. 

00:05:29 Andy 

I know there it has been a while. I thought I’d sneak one in ’cause. 

00:05:33 Louise 

Like a fire hose that sprays it all over the street. 

00:05:33 Andy 

I’ve missed them. 

00:05:37 Andy 

We will hold the House don’t way really. 

00:05:42 Andy 

Because making no decision or not listening to how we’re really feeling for a long time is really making a decision to force ourselves into a place where. 

00:05:50 Andy 

We must take action. 

00:05:51 Louise 

And last episode we spoke to some of Australia’s leading women of STEM about the science of changing our thinking. Well, it’s actually possible what’s going on in our brains and our bodies and how we can deliberately. 

00:06:01 Louise 

Choose to make change that supports good sustainable mental. 

00:06:05 Andy 

One of those exports was leading Australian neuroscientists in occupational therapy and stroke rehabilitation and recovery research. Professor Leanne carry from the flu institute. 

00:06:15 Andy 

We’ve seen incredible results in stroke recovery and told us about how our behaviour changes our brain and vice versa. 

00:06:22 Leeanne Carey 

I think it’s really good because it’s a full. If it’s a challenge for it so that the person you know this part of the network is not working properly. 

00:06:32 Leeanne Carey 

So there has to be some way of trying to reconnect between those parts that are working and or to help support. 

00:06:43 Leeanne Carey 

Some of that. 

00:06:44 Leeanne Carey 

Breakdown food, a particular region that might have occurred, so I suppose when you use the word more modable it, it’s it’s almost a need based because of the challenge and whether. 

00:06:58 Leeanne Carey 

Or not, it’s. 

00:06:58 Leeanne Carey 

More moldable, but it, or whether it’s that it has to be moulded because these these. 

00:07:06 Leeanne Carey 

That’s going on and you know, we often think about you know how we change the brain to change the behaviour. But really, it’s also. 

00:07:14 Leeanne Carey 

So both ways how we change the behaviour to change the brain. So these are two way process going on. 

00:07:20 Andy 

How important is the link of the? 

00:07:22 Andy 

Meaningful nature activities. When looking at helping someone to retrain it right I. 

00:07:27 Leeanne Carey 

Think it’s really important, because if we think about our brain being a network to help us do things and to achieve a goal. If that goal is mainly. 

00:07:39 Leeanne Carey 

So it already the person is already working with you to achieve that and and it’s focused so that there is an opportunity to then call on the parts of the network that are important to that particular task. 

00:08:00 Leeanne Carey 

So give them examples so we work on actually helping people regain a sense of touch and use it in everyday activities and there’s different layers to the goals that are meaningful for them. It might be forced the goal of the sensation just to feel if there’s a difference. 

00:08:20 Leeanne Carey 

Between two surfaces through to the goal of being able to. 

00:08:25 Leeanne Carey 

To hold a fork without dropping it, for example. So the meaningfulness is really critical to get that, buy in, and then the steps along the way to achieve that goal. 

00:08:40 Louise 

So of having a meaningful goal is the key to motivation to take action that builds the new neural pathways and changes the brain. What are our goals, Andy? 


00:08:50 Louise 

And have we ever actually set them consciously on? 

00:08:52 Andy 

But this is a very good question. That question around what motivates our desire for change. Have we been moving towards something you want to achieve or moving away from something that we don’t want to experience anymore? 

00:09:03 Louise 

Another guest from earlier in the season diversity translator Sally Goldner AM knows plenty about this and hinted that making a change can often involve much more than making a choice. 

00:09:14 Sally Goldner 

It might mean that people have to face some of their emotions and whether that involves mental health work or sitting with their feelings were stripped means you know, sort of well when we can going to a German, hitting, punching. 

00:09:27 Sally Goldner 

Bennett, what it will? 

00:09:28 Sally Goldner 

Perks you know is about. 

00:09:30 Sally Goldner 

Unblock, it’s about that, perhaps unlearning or unblocking innocence and some. 

00:09:35 Sally Goldner 

People might not do that. 

00:09:37 Sally Goldner 

There, it’s the emotions are too big. They don’t know how to deal with it. They’re too scary, and so you’re not going to win them all. But it is about trying to appeal to a sense of logic and humanity. I think it’s about. 

00:09:49 Sally Goldner 

Both and that also leads into issues about gender in leadership in lots of ways, which is also another 24. 

00:09:56 Sally Goldner 

Hour pet topics. 

00:09:58 Leeanne Carey 

Uhm, instead of so much. 

00:10:00 Sally Goldner 

Which that comes into this. Ultimately, though, we’ve got to take that responsibility for ourselves, and This is why that’s a pet topic. 

00:10:06 Sally Goldner 

A bit of a you know button, so to speak, is for us, at least in Australia. 25 years it seems we’ve heard so much about individual freedom, but freedom and responsibility needs to be closely balanced for each individual. 

00:10:20 Sally Goldner 

And for groups and society as a whole, and I think we’ve a lot of times we’ve lost track of responsibility. And in the end we have to take responsibility for our choice. 

00:10:29 Sally Goldner 

It’s and some are simple. 

00:10:31 Sally Goldner 

You know we or if there’s a red light ahead will stop because that’s the responsible thing to do. 

00:10:35 Sally Goldner 

Well, we hope anyway, but you know, I just feel a lot of the time people won’t take responsibility for their choices and likely consequences. 

00:10:43 Sally Goldner 

So it is about that form of logic, but it is also about respecting that people have deep rooted feelings. 

00:10:50 Louise 

So taking responsibility for our own choices. 

00:10:54 Louise 

Easier said than done. 

00:10:56 Louise 

I think. 

00:10:58 Andy 

Yeah, I’d have to agree. 

00:10:58 Louise 

It’s hard, isn’t it like? 

00:10:59 Andy 

With that, well, you know somebody kind of brings out that word responsibility, then it seems like that people want to play a blank game and turn it into a little. 

00:11:09 Andy 

Your fault or point fingers or something like that, and it’s not about that in the context that Sally talks about it. I cannot speak for Sally, obviously, but. 

00:11:17 Andy 

Well, I get from what Sally says is that as adults we need to really have a look at ourselves and take responsibility for our own actions, our own reactions, and have a you know, a bit of a sense of our own party in the interaction. 

00:11:29 Andy 

Transfer take place. So here the story that’s been running from the beginning of this series for me is that I lost my dad and that there was a deterioration around that time between me and others in my family and. 

00:11:43 Andy 

I suppose looking. 

00:11:44 Andy 

At the pattern of my family and there have been times in like third family and. 

00:11:50 Andy 

Back generations. 

00:11:51 Andy 

There’s been a falling out between, you know, couple of people and. 

00:11:54 Maree Teesson 

It’s yeah. 

00:11:55 Speaker 3 

It can go for years. 

00:11:56 Louise 

So it’s such that’s such a common story, though. Isn’t it like that whole? Yeah, family fallouts and ongoing Rogers and and. 

00:11:59 Andy 

It is scared. 

00:12:03 Louise 

And you did this and they did that, and sometimes it feels like no one taking responsibility for their own choices in those arguments. 

00:12:11 Andy 

Yeah, so you know, I’ve I’ve had a couple of. 

00:12:15 Andy 

Brief conversations with one of those family members and it kind of got to a point where you know some of the conversation was getting quite productive around, like acknowledging what happened and you know that we obviously didn’t mean to harm each other and stuff like that. So that was understood. But then as the conversation progressed, it became more about. 

00:12:35 Andy 

You did this and you did this and you did this and that’s where it starts to get overwhelming again because it starts. 

00:12:42 Andy 

Just to feel like an attack at each point, I acknowledge, and I said look, I’m sorry, but also this this and this is what you did. 

00:12:50 Andy 

And so I started to kind of get a bit of a sense that there was a bit of an imbalance there as well, because while I was apologising, I. 

00:12:56 Andy 

Wasn’t getting anything back in return. 

00:12:58 Andy 

I suppose where I’m at with this or this part of the story is that I’m not taking any proactive action to try and heal that because I thought, OK, well, if one is going to result in is me actually just acquiescing and going back to. 

00:13:12 Andy 

Open quotes normal close quotes. 

00:13:15 Andy 

Then that’s not what I’m. 

00:13:16 Andy 

Up for anymore, you know. 

00:13:18 Andy 

I actually want to have a good. 

00:13:19 Andy 

Relationship with these people. 

00:13:20 Andy 

I don’t want that to be one of the power play, or one where you know well. Remember that thing you did X amount of years ago, because yeah, yeah, because you know I fully take. 

00:13:26 Louise 

Remember that thing you said when you were? 

00:13:32 Andy 

Responsibility for what I did around that time. 

00:13:35 Andy 

Grief aside and Shaka side and all that kind of stuff that comes with the death of a family member aside, I have no intention of wearing that as any kind of excuse for things I said or did because those things that I said and did were ultimately not directly related to that. 

00:13:50 Andy 

Death they were. 

00:13:51 Andy 

Actually related to years and years of built up. 

00:13:55 Andy 

Stuff like we’re talking about at the opening of the episode, IT chips away here over so many years and then something significant happens. And then both. 

00:14:03 Kimberley Norris 

Implode and explode. 

00:14:05 Andy 

Upload and explode and don’t go down. 

00:14:09 Louise 

Unfortunately, no glitter at all, so you think that’s a situation of keeping it in over and over? Keeping in the the way that you feel and never really making the decision to address it until the pressure cooker builds and the fire hydrant bursts and the yeah. 

00:14:26 Louise 

The situation with the death. 

00:14:28 Louise 

Of your dad. 

00:14:29 Louise 

And the overwhelming of that emotion in there. 

00:14:32 Louise 

It was kind of the trigger that it just ’cause it’s the catalyst that caused the burst, but it wasn’t the thing that. 

00:14:34 Andy 

It was if Nick had last year. 

00:14:38 Louise 

Caused the pressure buildup. 

00:14:39 Andy 

Yeah, well, you see, you know one of the comments that I received being, you know I’m too old for this **** 

00:14:44 Andy 

When I was talking about something that that it upset me, it’s really just a repeat of shutdowns that I’d received throughout all of my life. 

00:14:53 Andy 

You know that I was being dramatic or that I was just being stupid or or whatever, so came to a point within me. 

00:14:59 Andy 

Or I thought I. 

00:15:00 Speaker 5 

OK, well I’m 

00:15:01 Andy 

Not being heard, and if I’m not going to be heard, I’m not going to progress this conversation. 

00:15:04 Andy 

There is no point putting myself through that because at the moment I don’t know how to effectively have that conversation. 

00:15:10 Andy 

You know, if I can’t actually use my voice effectively and be heard, and for that not to be skewed into something like me trying to have an ulterior motive. 

00:15:20 Andy 

And gain power, that’s not what it’s about. It’s about trying to actually level things out and have a respectful relationship. But if that isn’t something that is so. 

00:15:29 Andy 

That way, by those other people, then there’s no point in me expanding all of that energy continually to try and fix something that ultimately is just going to lend me back in. 

00:15:38 Andy 

The same frustrated place. 

00:15:40 Louise 

So when we talk about the motivation to choose or to choose to change and we had that wonderful episode last week from the women of STEM that had so many great. 

00:15:49 Louise 

Resources on the actual, practical, tangible steps that we can use. 

00:15:54 Louise 

Two change. 

00:15:56 Louise 

I mean, we even heard again from Leanne earlier. 

00:15:58 Louise 

This episode that it really is. 

00:15:59 Louise 

About having that, we’re finding that motivation that’s meaningful enough. 

00:16:03 Louise 

What do you think it was that yes, that was the moment that the pressure cooker burst that it exploded or imploded? But why were none of the other times that you swallowed down the fact that you weren’t expressing? 

00:16:16 Louise 

You really felt enough motivation to change to start making a choice for a healthier relationship with family members. 

00:16:24 Andy 

Yeah, that’s a good question. Always. Thanks for asking. 

00:16:26 Andy 

I I actually think that. 

00:16:30 Louise 

Can I have? Nobody’s my 100. 

00:16:31 Louise 

And $70.00 psychiatrist psychologist money now for you. 

00:16:35 Andy 

Yeah, sure, look for me. I think it was an acute awareness that I was alone now in that moment in that space. Because you know the leading limb of my family tree. 

00:16:50 Andy 

Right, my brothers were actually at the head of their own families, and so their traditions and things continued. But being a gay man who doesn’t have children of his own, then that sets me outside of that family. 

00:17:04 Andy 

Now you know, like we’re, we’re still obviously related, there is still that shared history and all of that, but. 

00:17:10 Andy 

The cortex that relationship. 

00:17:12 Andy 

Completely changed so you know, in that time and space where they had their families around them to provide support and comfort. 

00:17:21 Andy 

I was like a third wheel and I may or may not have been, you know, I’m sure that people involved would say, well, no, we didn’t believe that all. We don’t believe that at all. You were shutting us out and maybe I was. 

00:17:33 Louise 

Always going to be my next psychologist. Question is, have you have you considered now that you removed from the incident that the hindsight has? 

00:17:42 Louise 

Fast, yes, that they might have been argumentative at the time because they’re also in a place of hurt and no one really likes to be called out on things, and they probably did feel called out. But what might have been the motivation for them making the choices that they’ve made to? 

00:17:57 Andy 

Yeah, there’s a lot of other stuff over a number of years that built up to that moment too, so it’s difficult to talk about these things in isolation. 

00:18:05 Andy 

So when I say that that realisation to me kind of felt like the motivating factor in me exploding like I did, there’s a combination of things and inter relationships. 

00:18:16 Andy 

And being caught in the middle of other peoples arguments and fights and that sort of thing over a long period of time that I. 

00:18:23 Andy 

Really just had enough of. 

00:18:25 Andy 

I decided that I wasn’t. 

00:18:26 Andy 

Going to actually be a part of it anymore. 

00:18:29 Andy 

Taking the point that Leanne makes about making that kind of change for me, there was a massive step because I’ve always considered myself. 

00:18:36 Andy 

Quite close to my. 

00:18:37 Andy 

Family, and yet he was a move where I was actually breaking out of that mould, and I was actually changing the scripts, so I guess where my where my mind goes with with that kind of break away is that I knew that I needed to have a different quality of relationship with these people and I also knew that to just go through the same old patterns of. 

00:18:58 Andy 

I’m sorry, forgive me. I was bad boy. 

00:19:01 Andy 

That kind of stuff. 

00:19:02 Andy 

Wasn’t going to work for me. 

00:19:03 Andy 

Because that wasn’t going to change the dynamics of. 

00:19:05 Andy 

Any of that I’d really. 

00:19:07 Andy 

Felt that I needed to remove myself entirely from the dynamics of those relationships so that I could really get a good sense of myself and I actually wanted and needed. 

00:19:15 Louise 

In that motivation for change, or are you running towards clarity and empowerment for yourself? Or were you running away from being a part of that? 

00:19:24 Andy 

To be fair, I was definitely running away from what I just did not want any part of any more. 

00:19:29 Andy 

I didn’t want to be piggy in the middle, I didn’t. 

00:19:32 Andy 

Want to have any of those? 

00:19:34 Andy 

Or relationship things going on. 

00:19:37 Andy 

I’ve seen how things transpired for other people who have gone before me and I saw the impact on them emotionally, and I knew that if I actually stepped into those behaviours and allowed those people to continue. 

00:19:50 Andy 

With the way they actually treat people and allow them to do that to me, then I would be in a pretty vulnerable mental state. 

00:19:57 Louise 

I think the good thing is that we know from people we’ve spoken to since we’ve been putting together this series and the work that we’ve done on ourselves is that even if we started in that place of ****** undone. 

00:20:09 Louise 

We can change our motivations, we can change. Now what we choose, we can stop running from something and start heading towards something. 

00:20:11 Andy 

Close here. 

00:20:19 Andy 

They come to turning point because you can only run away from something for so long before you start running towards something. 

00:20:24 Andy 

Else I think. 

00:20:25 Louise 

And making a conscious decision about what you’re running towards. Otherwise you’re just here or on autopilot running to the next thing, and then you run away. 

00:20:32 Andy 

Yeah, I mean Google thingy. 

00:20:33 Louise 

On that. 

00:20:33 Andy 

It’s well, yeah, exactly so. The important thing is that once you’ve run away from what it is that you can no longer bear, you need to actually pause. 

00:20:42 Andy 

You need to take time for yourself. This is for me this is relevant to me. Other people might process things completely differently to me and that’s that’s for them, but for me, I really felt that I needed to actually get myself out of that. 

00:20:53 Andy 

And I needed to take whatever time it took for me to actually connect with what I need and then reform relationships were appropriate because it’s not always appropriate to go back to those relationships either. 

00:21:04 Andy 

I really felt. 

00:21:05 Andy 

That I needed to acknowledge that I’ve actually got the right to feel equally upset about what transpired, you know? 

00:21:11 Andy 

And and not to have to be the pacemaker, because that’s the role that I typically talk. You know, I’ve said that I’ve got stuck in the middle of people fights before, essentially, and that’s because you know I want to be the pacemaker. 

00:21:22 Andy 

I want to be the neutral party will be Switzerland. You know somebody comes in pictures about something? Well, I know right? Hello. 

00:21:25 Louise 

Even Switzerland, not neutral anymore. 

00:21:29 Andy 

Neither am I so they’ve got to the point where I just didn’t want to have someone coming to me and. 

00:21:36 Andy 

******** about the other person and then that other person coming in, but she made that other person. But of course I wouldn’t go and relay those messages to those other people because I didn’t get involved with any of those tiffs or any of those fights. 

00:21:47 Andy 

And really, I didn’t even want them to come pitching to me like I really just wanted to have an equal loving relationship with these people, but. 

00:21:56 Andy 

It’s not something that they were able to offer him towards art. 

00:21:58 Louise 

Not hashtag, good vibes only. 

00:22:00 Andy 

No, it’s not hashtag good vibes only there sadly. 

00:22:04 Andy 

But you know, there’s peacemaking thing needs to come from both sides. You know everybody needs to take ownership. 

00:22:09 Andy 

For what they’ve played in in whatever has happened, I just can’t let public. I said, well, I need to actually be still with myself and address the core issues which you know is not necessarily a quick and easy process, so. 

00:22:22 Louise 

The action you took in that was. 

00:22:25 Louise 

Cutting communication with said parties. 

00:22:27 Andy 

Boom, just even surface space to process things in some clarity around it as well. You know, like I’ve never said that I will never ever speak to this person ever again in my whole life, but also within that. 

00:22:38 Andy 

I’ve also said that you know they need to take responsibility for their part in things as well. I’m not going to walk into conversation and how it pick up exactly where it left off two years ago. 

00:22:48 Andy 

So at some. 

00:22:48 Andy 

Point, you know it’s becoming quite clear that this stalemate that I’ve created for myself is one that could continue, but also is one that I do feel that I need to take some action on that there needs to be something that happens to resolve it one way or another, whether that action is to say, you know, let’s talk this out. 

00:23:08 Andy 

Let’s build. 

00:23:08 Andy 

A respectful relationship or whether it in talking things out, it’s decided look you. 

00:23:13 Andy 

Know clearly we. 

00:23:14 Andy 

Have nothing in common other than the accident of our birth as refocus might say, and the action is to say, well, let’s just kind of wish each other well and and living happy life. It’s about kind of, I suppose, a bit of a change in thinking around approach that. 

00:23:29 Andy 

Which I’m kind of starting to kind. 

00:23:31 Andy 

You know the bit of a different angle to have a builder different, think about. 

00:23:35 Louise 

Excellent because we certainly. 

00:23:37 Louise 

Have had a lot of people be able. 

00:23:38 Louise 

To help us with this idea. 

00:23:39 Louise 

About changing our. 

00:23:40 Louise 

Thinking and the work that goes on behind this, including associate Professor, Kimberly Norris of the University of Tasmania. 

00:23:44 Speaker 3 

Oh yeah. 

00:23:48 Louise 

Who’s told us that? 

00:23:49 Louise 

The way we think and the action that we take. 

00:23:52 Louise 

Like are closely related. 

00:23:54 Kimberley Norris 

The thinking around the action actually changes the. 

00:23:57 Kimberley Norris 

Mood around the action. 

00:23:59 Andy 

I think I just found some motivation die in those shirts. 

00:24:03 Louise 

I think I just found a whole new way to. 

00:24:05 Louise 

Look at the housework. 

00:24:08 Louise 

Instead of hiding it, I could combine all the things that I hate in with my newfound anxiety. Time listed. 

00:24:14 Speaker 5 

Do it all. 

00:24:17 Kimberley Norris 

Well, fundamentally what we’re talking about is something that we’ve known for quite some time, which is the way we think affects the way we feel and why we feel affects the way we act. 

00:24:28 Kimberley Norris 

So if we can, you know press on any one of those three components. 

00:24:33 Kimberley Norris 

We will affect change in the others. 

00:24:35 Louise 

And founder and. 

00:24:36 Louise 

CEO of Legskin Daphne Capitus uses other peoples words to motivate herself in very pretty. 

00:24:41 Louise 

Still away. 

00:24:42 Daphne Kapetas 

I would give them my assignments and they would say, oh, you know who helps you do that because they assumed that being the way I was that I didn’t have brains. 

00:24:51 Daphne Kapetas 

You see these prejudices. It’s silly, like I didn’t. I didn’t fit in the scientific norm. It’s just silly. It it’s a limit. 


Yeah yeah, yeah. 

00:24:57 Daphne Kapetas 

It’s limiting on their part. 

00:24:58 Daphne Kapetas 

Not on mine and I. 

00:24:59 Daphne Kapetas 

Remember, once there was a subject called reaction kinetics, which is physics. 

00:25:02 Daphne Kapetas 

In chemistry and one of the guys. 

00:25:04 Daphne Kapetas 

Next to me said. 

00:25:04 Daphne Kapetas 

Or, you know, will never pass this one. It’s a 15% pass rate. Now that is enough to drive me mad. OK, tell me that I can’t do something. 

00:25:14 Daphne Kapetas 

And I’d be like I thank you for that. That’s exactly what I needed. I needed you to tell me. 

00:25:20 Speaker 3 

That I can’t do that now. 

00:25:22 Daphne Kapetas 

Watch me now. I never go back to the people. I never go back to these people to say. Gee, thanks for that. Because of you I got 95% and I remember lecturer walking in. 

00:25:33 Daphne Kapetas 

Saint Daphne Dimitriadis reaction kinetics stand up 95%. I blitzed it. I couldn’t believe it but I never told anybody that behind the scenes more brain was haemorrhaging. 

00:25:49 Andy 

Some great words there from Daphne and really, she’s got such a way about, hasn’t she? She’s. 

00:25:54 Louise 

I love dancing’s energy. 

00:25:56 Nathan Parker 

And I’m going to say that like that. 

00:25:57 Andy 

Whole thing is, well, you’re going to tell. 

00:25:59 Andy 

Me that I can’t do this. 

00:26:00 Andy 

Well, screw you, I’m gonna show you I’m gonna prove. 

00:26:01 Speaker 5 

I’m gonna throw your own. 

00:26:03 Andy 

You wrong, I think I’ve done that myself a few. 

00:26:06 Andy 

Times from 5. 

00:26:06 Speaker 3 

It’s like I think. 

00:26:07 Louise 

That’s probably one of my key motivators for things like. 

00:26:10 Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:26:13 Louise 

Actually, my therapist would probably say I’ve spent most of my life trying to prove my father role in some way or another like that. 

00:26:19 Louise 

That that’s been one of the the the major motivators for me prove he’s wrong. Prove I’m worthy of this, or worthy of that. 

00:26:26 Louise 

But you know what? 

00:26:26 Louise 

We’ve been down that path of. 

00:26:28 Louise 

Trauma, so maybe I’ll. 

00:26:29 Louise 

Give you a fresh dump of trauma. This this time instead, like. 

00:26:33 Andy 

Well, yeah like yeah, I mean what? 

00:26:33 Louise 

A new story. 

00:26:36 Andy 

If the person was telling you that you can’t do something, is actually. 

00:26:38 Speaker 3 

To you. 

00:26:39 Louise 

Which is very common. 

00:26:42 Louise 

Especially to me especially. 

00:26:44 Louise 

I mean, I’m sure that a lot of people can relate to this, but that that negative self talk you are your own harshest critic. 

00:26:51 Louise 

You’re the one telling yourself, no, that you can’t do it, that you can’t do things you can’t be who you want to be. 

00:26:57 Louise 

You can’t move how? 

00:26:58 Louise 

You want to live. 

00:26:59 Louise 

There are a lot of reasons that. 

00:27:01 Louise 

You might tell. 

00:27:01 Louise 

Yourself that, but it’s so easy, isn’t it? 

00:27:04 Louise 

So easy to make those excuses and criticise yourself like that and and tell yourself you can’t. 

00:27:10 Louise 

Be or do or have. 

00:27:12 Louise 

What you want? 

00:27:12 Andy 

It’s almost like we recover the evidence, don’t we? We we hear, we suppose we save things in the news. We hear attitude in the Community. Whatever it takes to actually justify not taking action on something. 

00:27:26 Louise 

I’m pretty sure Joe Focus might have been the one that told us that was confirmation bias, right, but we keep finding that stuff around ourselves to support our own hypotheses, even if that hypothesis isn’t true. 

00:27:36 Andy 

Yeah, definitely. 

00:27:38 Andy 

And you know. 

00:27:38 Andy 

It can go on for years. 

00:27:40 Andy 

And health like really profound impacts on us at the really base level of who we are and what we actually need. 

00:27:49 Andy 

What it means? I think you’ve had quite the journey with this. You know, since turning. 

00:27:53 Andy 

Fully, haven’t you? 

00:27:54 Louise 

Well, even before turning 40, here’s a concept that I. I mean, I think you’ve heard, but it might not be a common concept. 

00:28:01 Louise 

Compulsory heterosexuality. That’s the idea that when you’re born as you grow up in, assume to be heterosexual. Until otherwise evidenced, I supposed. 

00:28:10 Andy 

Proofing otherwise. 

00:28:12 Louise 

Proven otherwise. 

00:28:15 Louise 

And so we as a society make all these sort of sexuality and and gendered assumptions about people and about ourselves. Based on this whole embedded concept of compulsory heterosexuality. 

00:28:29 Andy 

This complied to anybody of any gender no. And note that we haven’t said both genders because there there are more than one gender. 

00:28:38 Andy 

You know, like I think we need to. 

00:28:39 Andy 

Kind of make that. 

00:28:40 Andy 

Pretty clear that that’s our position as well because. 

00:28:43 Andy 

This happens for people of all genders, where they may be same sex attracted there maybe I don’t know they might be Poly amorous. 

00:28:51 Andy 

You know there are things that don’t fit within the typical boy girl love scenario and were assigned gender at birth and are expected to conform to the norms of that gender in societies so. 

00:29:04 Andy 

Headship, compulsory section, controlled from. 

00:29:06 Louise 

Do you know what we call it? 

00:29:07 Louise 

On the Internet. 

00:29:08 Andy 

Come hit. 

00:29:09 Louise 

Compare it and I think it’s for that reason. It’s too long to type and it’s too hard to say. 

00:29:17 Andy 

Absolutely so compare. It shows up really early when you buy a little ball of Dolly and let’s go play mummies and daddies and more than any. Oh, how can we pretend to be your daddy? 

00:29:27 Andy 

Whenever you want me to do. 

00:29:28 Andy 

Tell me that kind of **** you know so. 

00:29:31 Louise 

Well, you tell your little boy that there’s going to be a heartbreaker one day and all the girls are going to swoon as a baby. He’s going to. 

00:29:38 Louise 

Break some hearts. 

00:29:39 Andy 

There was a man in the mothers group once that said to my mom or he’s got such kissable lips. 

00:29:44 Andy 

Second, oh, like 8 years old. 

00:29:48 Louise 

What is she thinking about kissing your lips? 

00:29:50 Leeanne Carey 

I don’t know both of my. 

00:29:52 Louise 

Lips, yeah, I don’t know. Should we use that as one of the reviews for the podcast? 

00:29:56 Andy 

He’s got great lady. 

00:29:58 Louise 

But kissable lips a James. 

00:30:04 Andy 

Yeah, be creepy, but anyway. 

00:30:08 Louise 

Well, father under things you couldn’t say in 2022 without being cancelled. 

00:30:11 Andy 

What does that feel to comprehend? 

00:30:13 Louise 

I don’t know. It was funny, right? 

00:30:14 Andy 

Anyway, it was. 

00:30:15 Louise 

Funny no, it’s OK. So there’s the basis of things compared, right? So for you when you came out you did struggle like those first early years trying to identify why you weren’t really into women and why you were finding yourself more attracted to men. 

00:30:31 Andy 

Had a girlfriend. The Kissable lips did wanna kiss. 

00:30:33 Louise 

Had a girlfriend that you write love letters too, but. 

00:30:36 Andy 

Yeah, same girlfriend. 

00:30:36 Nathan Parker 

Not, yeah, not as. 

00:30:38 Louise 

Well, as greater love letters as you wrote to that other dude, see in episode 2 episodes ago for that one. 

00:30:44 Louise 

So for you I that was a strong feeling. You knew that women didn’t fit. 

00:30:48 Andy 

Yeah, I knew within the core of my soul that. 

00:30:51 Andy 

It just wasn’t right. 

00:30:53 Louise 

The difference in that feeling and the feeling that I suppose you get from that kind of compulsory heterosexuality. 

00:31:00 Louise 

Reality, I think that compet is really common in people who are bisexual or pansexual and they don’t know it yet because if you feel so strongly about not being attracted to women, that’s a great indicator that you’re probably not attracted to women. But if someone is a bisexual, they might be occasionally. 

00:31:20 Louise 

Attracted to a woman and attracted to a man and attracted to any other gender. So when compared is a thing you think oh OK. Well I guess I’m not gay because I am attracted to some women. 

00:31:32 Andy 

Yeah, I think. 

00:31:33 Andy 

Really, you know there is a massive shift in thinking that needs to happen where people think in terms of genitalia. 

00:31:41 Andy 

You are simply, you know, like. 

00:31:43 Louise 

Especially, especially your friend with the libs. 

00:31:43 Andy 

You’ve got this, that goes. 

00:31:44 Andy 

With that, thank you, Suzanne. 

00:31:47 Andy 

You know, right? So there’s little room for acknowledgement there that people actually attracted to people, not to genitalia so. 

00:31:53 Louise 

It’s very black and white, kind of. 

00:31:55 Andy 

It is, yeah everybody experiences different with this. So for me not being bio. 

00:32:00 Andy 

Pan I knew that I wasn’t attracted to the opposite sex, so the way that manifested for me which you know isn’t necessarily the way it manifests for everybody. 

00:32:09 Andy 

And some people do actually go down that compared path and take a wife and have children and then 20 years later, actually you know. 

00:32:19 Andy 

And then we go over just bisexual but just bisexual one just bisexualism nothing. It’s actually maybe they are bisexual. 

00:32:19 Louise 

It’s there. 

00:32:27 Andy 

Maybe they suppress their sexuality because they felt that they couldn’t actually do anything. Otherwise, there are all sorts of things that happen psychologically and socially that prevent people from. 

00:32:39 Andy 

Being able to comfortably come out because whatever they are where they need to. 

00:32:44 Leeanne Carey 

And you know. 

00:32:44 Louise 

It from a female point of view, a female presenting point of view is probably the better way of putting it. 

00:32:50 Louise 

You get told these messages. These societal messages and I think it’s especially prevalent for women and I I really can’t comment on it from a from a male point of. 

00:33:01 Louise 

View, but we almost. 

00:33:05 Louise 

It’s like the patriarchy has set it up so that we the bar for men is so ******* low that we don’t notice. 

00:33:15 Louise 

We’re not all that interested because we think that’s what the best we’re going to get. That’s the best we can we ******* deserve because the bar for them is oh, it’s through the. 

00:33:24 Louise 

Floor low OK. How many women do you hear that aren’t really sexually satisfied by their relationships? It’s part of the expectation. Isn’t it? Like yeah. 

00:33:34 Andy 

Yeah, and also you know. I mean device might just be really bad at sex, but also, you know like what’s behind that lack of enjoyment as well? Like is it that they will actually attracted to them? 

00:33:44 Louise 

Oh yeah, yeah, and. 

00:33:45 Louise 

Again, and this can only come from my perspective as we’re set up with these expect. 

00:33:50 Louise 

Missions of you’ll find a partner and. 

00:33:53 Andy 

You’ll settle down and make yourself nice when he comes home from work and be the doting wife. 

00:33:57 Louise 

OK, and yeah, those were older expectations, but in in my you know generation of born in the 80s and I wasn’t going to settle down and be the doting wife. 

00:34:07 Andy 

But had sued with the body housework. 

00:34:08 Louise 

It’s still up to the woman to carry. 

00:34:10 Louise 

The majority of the housework right shouldn’t be. 

00:34:13 Louise 

When yet, how many women end up doing that because the bath for men is through the ******* floor and I’m struggling to give it a clear definition because it permeates so many things. 

00:34:17 Andy 

SurveyMonkey survey 

00:34:25 Louise 

So it permeates the ******* fairy tales of the Princess needing to be rescued by a man. He’s done something. 

00:34:34 Louise 

To win her and now she belongs to him. You know, like so many women have ****** sex and she needs sex with their partners because you know you see. 

00:34:45 Louise 

In the whole **** industry is set up even the ******* lesbian **** industry is set. 

00:34:50 Louise 

Up for the. 

00:34:51 Louise 

For the gratification of the man telling the story. 

00:34:54 Louise 

So it’s not. It’s not focused on a woman pleasure, it’s a ******* 

00:34:54 Andy 

Yeah, so now guys is. 

00:34:58 Louise 

Pump and dump. 

00:35:00 Louise 

When you, you’re a woman and you’re in a relationship like half the time. 

00:35:05 Louise 

Six ends when he ends. 

00:35:09 Louise 

So women quite are often very unsatisfied sexually because the pump and dump trucking dumps goes to sleep and then start snoring and. 

00:35:20 Speaker 5 

You’re left there going. 

00:35:22 Louise 

That wasn’t really that great for me. 

00:35:25 Andy 

He’s going to finish this down. 

00:35:27 Louise 

Who’s going to finish this off but? 

00:35:32 Louise 

Hashtag hashtag model men hashtag not all men some of. 

00:35:33 Leeanne Carey 

Well, but it’s true. 

00:35:37 Louise 

Them are, you know? 

00:35:39 Louise 

My point isn’t that all men are chitat sex. My point is that it’s become. It’s an expectation, it’s something that we’ve internalised through these messages. 

00:35:47 Louise 

That we got. 

00:35:48 Louise 

That’s just how sex is. That’s how relationships are. Even as a ******* strong feminist still holding on to this idea that well. 

00:35:58 Louise 

It’s my responsibility to be a ******* glory hole for *** **** even if I don’t want to have sex. 

00:36:05 Louise 

’cause it’s part of the job and everyone has relationships like that that aren’t that fulfilling. What about the whole? 

00:36:13 Louise 

The whole idea of of orgasm in women like we know that most women don’t orgasm through penetration. It’s through things like clitoral stimulation. And yet all we ever see is all focused on. 

00:36:25 Louise 

Penetration sex is focused on penetration ’cause it’s about. 

00:36:29 Louise 

How women and? 

00:36:30 Louise 

Their bodies can serve men, and so even though do you know what the men ******* know the men so I can know that they have to stimulate the ******** and like. 

00:36:41 Louise 

Cook for men and then they **** it up and then they they try and they push it too hard or they you know I mean. 

00:36:49 Leeanne Carey 

He need like. 

00:36:50 Andy 

Little markers like little sticky tabs like Bush here. 

00:36:51 Speaker 5 

It’s not that ******* hot. It’s not ******* hard. 

00:36:55 Louise 

It is not ******* hard. 

00:36:59 Louise 

Because they don’t want to communicate ’cause or or listen or you know ’cause. It’s it’s about their self gratification themselves and the comp head. 

00:37:07 Louise 

Of it all. 

00:37:08 Louise 

Is that women are conditioned to accept. 

00:37:10 Louise 

That and told. 

00:37:11 Louise 

That that’s just how it is we. 

00:37:13 Louise 

Kind of grow up believing that those are the relationships that you have. Well, you’ve got to make. 

00:37:18 Daphne Kapetas 

A trade off. 

00:37:19 Louise 

This guy is nice. You don’t end up sexually satisfied. 

00:37:22 Louise 

You don’t really all. 

00:37:24 Louise 

That attracted to him, but that’s OK because he’s a nice person and maybe he’d make a nice father for the kids. Or he can provide or something like that. 

00:37:30 Andy 

If you would a here. 


You like, oh. 

00:37:34 Louise 

OK, that’s just normal. All these things are normalised these these, this undervaluing of us as women of accepting that relationships are like that. 

00:37:43 Louise 

Like yeah, it’s OK for the woman to date because he’s a nice personality or you know he’ll be a good provide. 

00:37:48 Leeanne Carey 

Better or or? 

00:37:49 Louise 

Whatever else that might be, even if she’s not attracted to him, even if then their sex isn’t that good. 

00:37:54 Louise 

But he he you know he’s satisfied, so it’s OK and and he chips in the you know, occasionally watches his own ******* kids. 

00:38:02 Louise 

And you know he helps her out with those kind of things. Or he might one day stack the dishwasher. And so I helped you out. Honey, even though she’s doing. 

00:38:09 Louise 

Over housework as well as working a job and doing all the main childcare and it’s all normalised so compact it’s accepted so compact occur. 

00:38:16 Andy 

Yeah, it’s it’s. It’s accepted here. 

00:38:20 Louise 

As well, you don’t think the question that the reason that you find your husband isn’t unappealing ******** is because you’re actually not into ******* men. 

00:38:29 Louise 

We expect everyone feels like that we’re told everyone. 

00:38:32 Louise 

Feels like this. 

00:38:34 Louise 

That aren’t. There’s actually some really nice men out there. 

00:38:37 Andy 

And there are. 

00:38:38 Andy 

Some really happy heterosexual couples out there, you. 

00:38:41 Andy 

Know like this. 

00:38:42 Andy 

Isn’t a problem about bashing heteros or anything. 

00:38:44 Speaker 5 

Oh no, no. 

00:38:44 Andy 

Like that the. 

00:38:44 Louise 

No, I did get I got on my I got on my high horse because I’ve just thought about all the ****** ******* six I. 

00:38:45 Andy 

People, my own label with. 

00:38:50 Louise 

Pad with sucking pump. You sucking pump. 

00:38:51 Andy 

But this is for size. 

00:38:52 Louise 

And dump me and it can’t find the ******** 

00:38:55 Andy 

But this is coming from your perspective as well. In there you know you it really started to dawn on you that actually it wasn’t just a problem with the men in their behaviours, was actually was actually depend on that for you. 

00:39:07 Louise 

Yeah, did I have too much of a shift on men? 

00:39:10 Andy 

Oh, it’s a pretty big shift on men. 

00:39:11 Louise 

So I think. 

00:39:12 Louise 

That the point of my very long winded explanation of compulsory heterosexuality that really just sounds like me shooting on men. 

00:39:22 Andy 

Let us get some tea. 

00:39:23 Andy 


00:39:24 Louise 

It’s really to point out the fact that so people can be something other than straight for a long time in life and not even realise it because we’re conditioned to expect certain behaviours or and accept certain behaviours. Unless aggressive way of defining that. When I was at school. 

00:39:43 Louise 

And I was first developing crushes on people. I never really felt like many of them were genuine crushes. 

00:39:50 Louise 

I I kind of had a criteria like is this person Nice? Do they have nice eyes you’ll? 

00:39:56 Andy 

Do it’s a bit the same, actually. 

00:39:58 Andy 

Yeah, I’ve gotta go ahead like when the people in European group is talking about who’s hot and who’s not in that kind of thing. You kind of start to formulate opinions around that kind of stuff to actually be in. 

00:40:10 Andy 

With the picra, because he don’t seem different. 

00:40:13 Louise 

Because also you. 

00:40:14 Louise 

Assume that everybody else is kind of thinking a similar way like this is, but like turning into. 

00:40:18 Louise 

Such a graphic. 

00:40:19 Louise 

Episode, but OK, let’s let’s take a penis. For example, right now, like. 

00:40:27 Louise 

If I was to show you a photo. 

00:40:30 Louise 

Of an erect penis. 

00:40:32 Leeanne Carey 

Would you go? 

00:40:33 Louise 

Alright, that’s good, yeah. 

00:40:35 Louise 

I’m on board. Or would you go? 

00:40:37 Louise 

I don’t get it. 

00:40:38 Andy 

Ah, look, I’ve probably dropped on board a couple. 

00:40:46 Speaker 4 

You know? 

00:40:46 Andy 

It’s it’s sort of the conceptual kind of kind of manner. 

00:40:50 Louise 

You know there’s that whole thing with unsolicited **** **** et cetera, et cetera. And I. 

00:40:53 Louise 

You know, I’ve I’ve been there. 

00:40:54 Sally Goldner 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:40:55 Louise 

Pain of many unsolicited **** **** 

00:40:58 Andy 

Never had any big wins solicited. 

00:41:00 Louise 

I’ve seen many. 

00:41:01 Louise 

An unsolicited **** The thing about it is, is that it is so normalised for that experience to happen to women that if I see * **** *** I go. 

00:41:12 Louise 

And I didn’t realise until I actually was discussing it with one of my friends, the cisgendered woman, how she feels about getting the occasional **** *** 

00:41:21 Louise 

And she also feels like. 

00:41:23 Louise 

She could climb on it occasionally I. 

00:41:24 Andy 

Well, they fighting. 

00:41:25 Louise 

Didn’t realise that it was a feeling of revolution until I discussed it with some. 

00:41:29 Louise 

Fails because I just thought everyone felt that way. 

00:41:32 Andy 

Then did start to condone the practise in any way, because it shouldn’t be done unsolicited, they like. 

00:41:36 Louise 

Only known it never, never, but I mean even a solicit I was. I would never ask someone for * **** *** I don’t really see if I. 

00:41:43 Louise 

Can dig even solicited no. 

00:41:45 Andy 

Move in a quick peek. 

00:41:46 Louise 

I got some tip pics recently though. 

00:41:48 Andy 

No, it make you feel we could leverage. 

00:41:49 Louise 

They were also unsolicited, so I also didn’t want them. Please don’t send unsolicited genitalia in any form. 

00:41:57 Andy 

That said. 

00:41:57 Louise 

I I I you know I tried to get onto the other topic and. 

00:42:01 Louise 

I still think. 

00:42:02 Leeanne Carey 

I’m just ship my Meg now I’m. 

00:42:04 Louise 

Shooting on I’m sitting. 

00:42:04 Andy 

I thank you. 

00:42:05 Louise 

On men sending unsolicited **** **** 

00:42:07 Andy 

If that’s where you need to be, that’s where you need to be. 

00:42:10 Louise 

The point with that is that it wasn’t even a question in my mind. Am I actually attracted to someone other than cisgendered men because I honestly thought everyone felt the way that I felt. I thought that everyone expected sex in relationships to not people that great. 

00:42:26 Andy 

That’s kind of like that whole societal thing that comes from the sexual liberation stuff as well, isn’t it? Now, it’s just. 

00:42:31 Andy 

Give it away whatever. 

00:42:33 Andy 

And I think you know to some extent, we’ve kind of lost the intimacy of that, you know, like looking at prolific pool is now and how people just go and switch onto any of those websites and can get it for free. 

00:42:44 Andy 

Anytime I had to actually get a chair and go to the top of my dad’s covered to see. 

00:42:48 Andy 

Problem when I was. 

00:42:49 Andy 

A teenager and then here. 

00:42:51 Andy 

If we put the tape back in its place so that. 

00:42:53 Andy 

It didn’t work have been disturbed. 

00:42:55 Speaker 3 

You don’t. 

00:42:56 Louise 

Want to wreck that VCR tape. 

00:42:58 Andy 

Goalkeeper just got chewed up in their heads. How we explained that? 

00:43:02 Andy 

Although, how would the conversation ever come up? Because he certainly would have admitted that he’s altered being chewed up, so you know, we’ll win. 

00:43:07 Louise 

No, we have spoken before on the podcast about. 

00:43:12 Louise 

Me getting to a point where I realised that I wasn’t straight up and how long that took me. I think it was 36 or 37 when I realised that the things that I felt weren’t things that everybody else was feeling. Once I started to discover this idea of comp. Head and. 

00:43:32 Louise 

Really looking to why I felt the way that. 

00:43:34 Louise 

I felt it kind of all unravelled, and. 

00:43:36 Louise 

And then it’s like it shines a light on all your past experiences and you go. OK? Well, that’s why I always said that. 

00:43:42 Louise 

I think that. 

00:43:43 Louise 

Women are more attractive than men and that’s why I always felt uncomfortable. If I was ever with a friend when she was changing and she didn’t feel uncomfortable, right? And I’m like, where should I look? I don’t feel like I should look right. 

00:43:57 Louise 

That’s why I was sad that time that I was at the bar. 

00:44:01 Louise 

In Ballarat and. 

00:44:01 Louise 

These this lovely woman came up and like brought me a drink and then we had a dance and then. 

00:44:07 Louise 

She like said you another drink and I said Jag and Volker Cruiser. And then she came back with a beer with some Raspberry in it. 

00:44:13 Louise 

And then I was. 

00:44:14 Louise 

Like that’s a shame ’cause I thought like maybe we could go home together but not. 

00:44:17 Louise 

She’s going to buy me a beer and then I told that story as a joke, but now I think actually like that’s not something with straight. 

00:44:27 Louise 

People, so do you know what straight people aren’t doing? They’re not. 

00:44:31 Speaker 5 

Googling, am I gay? 

00:44:32 Louise 

Hey, at 1:00 o’clock in the morning, they’re not. 

00:44:34 Andy 

No, that’s true. Yeah, there’s very few of them doing that. 

00:44:37 Louise 

They’re not on, you know, gave tick Tock going. Why do I keep getting served all these lesbian videos? 

00:44:38 Sally Goldner 

If any. 

00:44:43 Andy 

Invite Tik T.O.K. 

00:44:44 Louise 

Do you not know about lesbian talk and gay top? Oh, we’ll send you down that wasn’t you down that rabbit hole after this, you know. 

00:44:52 Andy 

Bailey tab, it’ll. 

00:44:53 Andy 

Come on, did you mean that people? 

00:44:55 Louise 

We are all thinking these things are we really want all Googling these things? Like if we were shown a whole other light on all these past experiences that I hadn’t even considered from because they were. 

00:45:06 Louise 

There were those emotions, those things that we talked about, the start. 

00:45:09 Louise 

Of the episode. 

00:45:10 Louise 

Was just pushing them down and push them down and pushing it down and just not. 

00:45:14 Louise 

Dealing with it. 

00:45:15 Louise 

Because I don’t even know if I was all that aware of it to be honest ’cause compets a genuine thing and I just thought this is how relationships were and if this is how relationships are then. 

00:45:25 Louise 

I don’t really. 

00:45:26 Louise 

They want them, and so I was never in a big rush to have relationships, and when I’ve had relationships, I’ve tried to make sure that they were people who I got along with more. 

00:45:36 Louise 

And even when I’ve had, you know relationships where I’ve had a lot of sex with the men, I’ve still kind of felt like I, like I have to do this, and so it’s really not until I think. 

00:45:46 Louise 

The last relationship where I was like, I just. 

00:45:50 Louise 

Uh ******** can’t, I’m sucking, I’m ******* done. 

00:45:53 Andy 

He went to that point. It was nothing overrides. 

00:45:56 Louise 

******** cart and I’m ******* done. I’m ******* sick of ***** 

00:46:03 Andy 

Literally and figuratively. 

00:46:05 Louise 

So cut to whatever it is 2017. I think it was a marriage equality time and I and I start to have those thoughts and I’m in a relationship. 

00:46:15 Louise 

I’m in a long term relationship with a cisgendered man and it really weighs on me all the time, over and over and I was. 

00:46:23 Louise 

Also suffering from the depression, the anxiety that we’ve spoke about on the show before. 

00:46:28 Louise 

Wasn’t related to that, that was certainly a part of it. Anything where you’re right, you know, hiding your identity from yourself is certainly all the part of it. 

00:46:35 Andy 

It’s bound to crop. 

00:46:37 Andy 

Up with those sorts of things here. 

00:46:38 Louise 

I did get to the point where I just couldn’t stop thinking about it all the time, like he’s asleep at night and I’m dead on my phone on like gay Reddit. Is it normal to feel this? 

00:46:51 Leeanne Carey 

Way dot dot dot dot dot. 

00:46:52 Andy 

And like I. 

00:46:56 Louise 

Do other people blah blah blah? How do I know? How do I know if I’m gay? How do I tell someone? 

00:47:02 Louise 

And then you go down the I went down the path as well of going on on some of these in the. 

00:47:07 Louise 

Limits forums like. 

00:47:08 Louise 

Have you stayed with your partner after you told them that you were gay because? 

00:47:14 Louise 

It’s like, well, you know I’ve spent a. 

00:47:17 Louise 

Number of years with this. 

00:47:18 Louise 

Yes, and I I love them. I care about them so I don’t really want them out of my life. 

00:47:24 Louise 

And I know that that’s how relationship end and then when that happens that happens. So is it worth keeping it in, holding it in and just staying in this relationship and never exploring that part of myself because? 

00:47:39 Louise 

I can’t discount every interaction that I’ve had with men because as much as I shadowed men earlier in the conversation, there have been some wonderful men that I’ve seen and have had quite fulfilling sexual experiences with the fact that they’re rare is disappoint. 

00:47:54 Louise 

Think, but there have been some and. 

00:47:56 Louise 

I I can’t discount the fact. 

00:47:58 Louise 

That I was very attracted to them. 

00:47:59 Andy 

That was also from that space of compact, though wasn’t it? You know, so I suppose you know where you’re at from turning 37. 

00:48:06 Andy 

The Marriage Equality Survey, that sort of thing that really started to trigger within you. These other feelings he hadn’t acknowledged before. 

00:48:13 Andy 

And you know, there’s that kind of need to explore for you. Then you know whether those other feelings are legitimate, whether they’re actually. 

00:48:20 Andy 

Apart of willing to run away from possibly a relationship that you didn’t want to be anymore, all those sorts of things I think started to. 

00:48:27 Andy 

Culminate, didn’t they? 

00:48:28 Speaker 4 

I yeah. 

00:48:30 Louise 

You’re preempting the next part of the story though, are you you looked into your first? I was, you, looked into your crystal ball. 

00:48:34 Andy 

Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sure you’re coming to visit. 

00:48:39 Louise 

The next part of that is that eventually it got to the point where I couldn’t not say something about the way that I was feeling about that inside, and I actually I did think at the time. 

00:48:50 Louise 

That partner at the time was. I thought he was supportive in that when he said if it’s something that you want to explore. 

00:48:57 Louise 

Thing you can and we can stay together and I actually felt like that gave me great relief at that time to know that the option was there. 

00:49:06 Andy 

Very big space to kind of. 

00:49:08 Andy 

Feel it was safe to explore. 

00:49:09 Louise 

But I also at that time was depressed for other reasons and really struggling with my mental health for other reasons. 

00:49:16 Louise 

And so even though I had permission, I hope that came across as in commerce, bold and italicised, even. 

00:49:25 Louise 

Though I had. 

00:49:27 Louise 

Uhm, I didn’t because I didn’t have the energy to. I don’t have the energy to look after myself, let alone to bother trying to share any intimacy, emotional or physical, with anybody else. 

00:49:40 Louise 

So it wasn’t. 

00:49:41 Louise 

Until really until we began this process until the force change the change of. 

00:49:46 Louise 

The things that I was. 

00:49:47 Louise 

Running away from, you know, changing changing careers, leaving the circumstances that were were toxic. 

00:49:53 Louise 

Leaving situations behind that weren’t working for me. US looking at starting a business and us starting to put together this podcast that even though I had that permission all that time ago that I actually started to feel better and like I might like to pursue something or that there might be a bigger part of me there. 

00:50:13 Louise 

It feels like I’m missing out than what I was and also questioning that whole permission thing as well, because ******* I don’t need anybody’s permission. 

00:50:24 Andy 

Yeah, ’cause it’s about you. It’s not about them. 

00:50:26 Speaker 3 

Back to. 

00:50:27 Louise 

The compact and the male gaze. 

00:50:28 Louise 

Is the idea of giving someone permission starts to feel like and particularly was reinforced by conversations around it? Like if you’re going to go explore your sexuality with other people? Sorry, other women, other cisgendered women, because it was definitely A1 penis policy. 

00:50:47 Louise 

Then am I a part of that? What’s in that for me? And so then that’s actually not about your genuine care of me understanding this part of myself. It’s once again life through the male gaze. 

00:50:48 Andy 

Of course. 

00:51:01 Andy 

It’s cannot join in you. 

00:51:04 Andy 

I would really like. 

00:51:09 Louise 

Because the one pianist policy right, it’s this idea. That or you can go sleep with anybody else. 

00:51:14 Louise 

But only one penises. 

00:51:16 Louise 

And I’m like, but if it’s true if it’s true to say that you can be in a relationship and then like many Poly amorous or open relationship couples do set healthy boundaries. If if it’s true to say that you could explore your sexuality. 

00:51:29 Louise 

Outside of this current relationship and set up systems of trust and. 

00:51:33 Kimberley Norris 

Blah blah blah. 

00:51:34 Louise 

Blah blah, then the quarter of penises shouldn’t matter. You should actually be free to explore your sexuality with whomever you want, so putting the peenis quota on it, anybody as long? 

00:51:46 Louise 

As I don’t have a penis, yeah. 

00:51:48 Andy 

It should be completely genitalia neutral. 

00:51:51 Louise 

It means that it was never about helping someone you care about. It was all about. 

00:51:55 Louise 

Maybe this will. 

00:51:56 Louise 

Lead to something for me like a threesome. 

00:51:58 Louise 

Or I can watch. 

00:51:59 Andy 

Yeah, hot so that really was a boundary that you weren’t prepared to cross though, isn’t it? 

00:52:04 Louise 

No, because then it wouldn’t have been about me and exploring something. For me. It would have been again something for someone else in the relationship because. 

00:52:13 Louise 

Compared because society told me that I had to give him something for me to have anything for me. 

00:52:22 Andy 

That’s right, nothing for you without something for him. 

00:52:24 Louise 

When I started actively working on my mental health, I got to a point where I realised that I wasn’t feeling bad about a lot of things anymore. 

00:52:34 Louise 

I wasn’t really depressed around the work stuff. I wasn’t feeling depressed around stuff that we were doing in our business that working, making content, or in making friends. 

00:52:44 Louise 

Or any of those things, but the area that kept falling down was in terms of sexuality and relationship. 

00:52:52 Louise 

Because when I first started seeing a psychologist when I first started to actually get help and take medication for my depression, she did say do you want to discuss your relationship and I said I don’t want to make any decisions based on how I feel now. ’cause I’m worried that I’ll throw the baby out with the bathwater and ’cause I do believe. 

00:53:12 Louise 

Things can change when you change the way that you feel about them, and that may be things that seem like not healthy or or problems. 

00:53:21 Louise 

If I was feeling better in general, then you know maybe there wouldn’t be so many arguments. Maybe I’d feel like I might feel like having sex in my relationship. Those things might. 

00:53:27 Andy 

There will be such an issue here. 

00:53:32 Louise 

Not make an issue. 

00:53:34 Louise 

If I can get myself into a place where I feel better than. 

00:53:37 Louise 

I could, you know, make an informed decision. 

00:53:39 Louise 

And see if that fixes it. 

00:53:40 Louise 

As soon as I started to do the work of feeling better and started to feel better in all those other things. 

00:53:47 Louise 

Really became apparent that it wasn’t me. 

00:53:50 Andy 

Then he started to get a better understanding of. 

00:53:52 Andy 

Yourself and what you needed. Then it became patently. 

00:53:55 Andy 

Clear that you. 

00:53:56 Andy 

Weren’t the issue. 

00:53:57 Louise 

I mean, I’m still plenty of issues, but in in that particular. 

00:53:59 Sally Goldner 

Well, I thought. 

00:54:01 Andy 

Was the issue at hand like the issue that you were looking at it thinking? Was the problem wasn’t actually the. 

00:54:06 Andy 

Issue that was the problem. 

00:54:07 Louise 

And some of those times when. 

00:54:09 Louise 

I started to feel better. 

00:54:11 Louise 

And then was questioning whether it’s the fact that I’m in a relationship with a man, or if it’s the fact that I’m in a relationship that’s not working. 

00:54:23 Louise 

That’s not healthy. I don’t know which one. 

00:54:25 Louise 

It was and. 

00:54:26 Louise 

So there are little nights where instead. 

00:54:29 Louise 

Of Googling am I gay? 

00:54:31 Louise 

At 1:00 in the morning, when I switched to Googling and my pretending to be gay because I just don’t want to be in a relationship any. 

00:54:39 Louise 

Am I trying to convince myself that I’m gay as an excuse to leave a relationship? 

00:54:45 Andy 

I’m kind of guessing the answers on that thread models linked to the same place. 

00:54:48 Louise 

As the other one, what unsolicited **** **** 

00:54:51 Andy 

Well, the question of am I gay? 

00:54:55 Louise 

Do you think that straight people is? 

00:54:57 Louise 

Sitting up late at. 

00:54:57 Louise 

Night Googling, am I pretending to be gay to? 

00:55:00 Speaker 5 

Get out of a relationship. 

00:55:02 Speaker 3 

In what? 

00:55:05 Louise 

So after I was. 

00:55:06 Louise 

Advised by strangers on the Internet that I am in fact not Googling something commonly googled by straight people. 

00:55:17 Louise 

I think that that voice, just it it got too loud and it it got so loud that the UN attraction I felt towards a cisgendered male. All of that I I I got to a point where on my 40th birthday I imploded. 

00:55:33 Louise 

Instead of having a good birthday in the car on the way home from my birthday lunch, arguing with my partner at the time and telling him that I think that maybe I’m gayer than you think I am. 

00:55:48 Andy 

Did you pull out the Kinsey scale, Alfred? 

00:55:49 Louise 

Should we put? 

00:55:50 Louise 

The Kinsey scale in the show notes. 

00:55:52 Andy 

Maybe we should anyone who’s curious. 

00:55:57 Louise 

Yeah, so so that conversation in the car on the way home from my birthday. It was I. I don’t know if I can do this anymore because I don’t know if I’m lying to you and lying to me. If maybe the fact that I don’t feel that this is. 

00:56:17 Louise 

Working myself, I don’t feel happy. The fact that I don’t feel attracted if it means that in fact that I’m not interested in cisgendered men at all, and that was a hard conversation to have because. 

00:56:29 Louise 

’cause I was very scared of leaving that relationship because it was something that I’d invested. 

00:56:35 Louise 

A lot of time. 

00:56:36 Louise 

In and invested a lot of money and it was. 

00:56:40 Louise 

Sunk cost fallacy. 

00:56:43 Andy 

Some cost phallus. 

00:56:47 Louise 

Sunk cost fallacy. 

00:56:51 Leeanne Carey 

Can we put that in the? 

00:56:52 Louise 

Quote for the episode. 

00:56:53 Andy 

Go on. 

00:56:54 Louise 

So yeah, so Louise and Andy talk about sunk cost fallacy. In today’s episode, every frame of mind. 

00:57:01 Louise 

And what that would mean for me if that relationship was to end, because you know, it had been five years or so we were in the process of of setting up our business. 

00:57:10 Louise 

And this was all I was doing financially for an income. There was no support network of another job, there was just. 

00:57:21 Andy 

You may now super rules in separate states finding something. 

00:57:24 Louise 

And and my credit card and my savings. 

00:57:28 Louise 

And they were slowly going up and down at the same time and not in the good way. So if I put this out there and I, and this caused that relationship to end, and then I take on all those costs of the household on my own. And what does that mean for us? 

00:57:43 Andy 

Yeah, it said that there was a massive risk, but you know, I think also from a perspective. I think you kind of realised pretty well that you couldn’t just base your situation on that alone. Hey, you know, like you needed to actually be true to yourself. 

00:58:00 Andy 

As far as what you need is personally. 

00:58:02 Louise 

Yeah, I jump back on the Internet where all my anonymous friends are on my birth, death and 1:00 AM community and well, this is the comment that I I wrote on my birthday. 

00:58:06 Andy 

A little bit of community. 

00:58:14 Louise 

I turned 40 today and for some reason after I left lunch with my friends when my cishet male partner and I were driving home, we got talking about sex first love. 

00:58:24 Louise 

He previously told me if I’d wanted to explore my sexuality. I could. I only started to admit to myself that I was paying a couple of years ago and rarely mentioned it in real life. 

00:58:33 Louise 

I feel like I don’t get to belong in LGBT spaces when I haven’t had the experience of dating anyone other than SIS men. 

00:58:40 Louise 

And even though I. 

00:58:40 Louise 

Had permission to explore. I hadn’t done it because I felt like that would be cheating because I want an emotional connexion as well. 

00:58:49 Louise 

Then he said. 

00:58:50 Louise 

It’s OK if you’re gay, you know. 

00:58:52 Louise 

And it all flooded out all the times I sit here, wondering if. 

00:58:55 Louise 

I’m more gay than. 

00:58:56 Louise 

I admit the fact that I haven’t been interested in a sexual relationship with him in years, wondering if any of my relationships with. 

00:59:02 Louise 

Men have been. 

00:59:03 Louise 

Anything other than compared and if it turns out that I am how it will change my life and how we’ll have to set him free because it’s not fair just to keep him around as a backup plan. 

00:59:13 Louise 

So I guess it’s true what people say about turning 40, gaining self confidence and caring less about what other people think Lol I don’t. 

00:59:20 Louise 

Know what’s next? 

00:59:21 Louise 

But it feels like relief. 

00:59:23 Andy 

It’s a pretty powerful place for 40th birthday. 

00:59:29 Andy 

We don’t know, we don’t. 

00:59:30 Louise 

No, no glass sucker didn’t even. 

00:59:32 Andy 

Like we don’t. 

00:59:32 Louise 

Get me a cake. 

00:59:35 Louise 

I had to go pick my own birthday present to. 

00:59:37 Louise 

Like I mean, I know. 

00:59:38 Andy 

It’s self serve birthday. 

00:59:40 Kimberley Norris 

Look, let’s put it. 

00:59:41 Louise 

Like this at that point, when I posted that I actually. 

00:59:44 Louise 

Thought Oh no. 

00:59:44 Louise 

It’s going to be really sad in the. 

00:59:46 Louise 

Relationship and since. 

00:59:47 Louise 

Having ended the relationship total total mindset. 

00:59:53 Louise 

Ending not so great so. 

00:59:55 Louise 

I’m very happy to have ended the relationship. 

00:59:57 Andy 

Things work out, you know. It was it difficult for you to hear people kind of reflecting back to you in those forums that honey, honey straight people don’t ask those questions. 

01:00:06 Louise 

Not difficult, but more that I felt like I was. 

01:00:10 Louise 

Making it up that I mix. 

01:00:12 Louise 

Graduating, especially having had no relationships with anybody that wasn’t a SIS man as well like yeah, so even now that I haven’t been in a relationship with somebody for probably six months, I I still think I’m I’m making it up because I’m not really interested in being in a relationship with anybody. Currently, I’m in a process of healing, I suppose. 

01:00:32 Louise 

But I’m certainly not interested in dating sis man. 

01:00:32 Speaker 3 

And honey. 

01:00:34 Leeanne Carey 

I’ll tell you that. 

01:00:35 Speaker 3 

When you when? 

01:00:36 Andy 

You’re ready to explore. There’s going to be. 

01:00:37 Andy 

A lot of glitter. 

01:00:38 Louise 

There’s going to be Louise is sexy. Flooding times. 

01:00:41 Andy 

Yeah, yeah, I’ll hand over the baton so it’s been gathering dust for so long. 

01:00:46 Louise 

Oh, thank you. 

01:00:48 Andy 

So when it comes down to the changes that you did make as a result of everything you were feeling, everything that correlated, I’ll ask you the same question you asked me. Do you feel like you were running away from something running towards something? 

01:00:59 Louise 

Away absolutely yes, absolutely. Yeah. I wasn’t making conscious choice. I wasn’t choosing to run towards something. I was letting it build up until it imploded and till I was backed into an I just ******* can’t live like this anymore. I just ******* can’t not. 

01:01:17 Louise 

Be authentic, I just ******* can’t go through another day without saying these things to hell with the consequences because it might kill me if I don’t ******* say it and I just ******* can’t do another 50 years of my life in this situation. 

01:01:37 Louise 

Without actually ever knowing the answer, because even if I thought I was making it up at at least owed myself the chance to find out so no, all of that choice was made for. 

01:01:47 Louise 

I just ******* can’t. 

01:01:49 Louise 

Not have possibility out of hope out of going towards something. 

01:01:52 Andy 

The truth catches up with this in the end. You know that’s that’s what happened, isn’t it? You know this is what therapy sessions are based on that you know, we kind of come to our crew from need to find a way to kind of actually deal with that and to actually learn to say the things for ourselves that we need to say. So sometimes those things are hard to say, and sometimes they’re hard. 

01:02:11 Andy 

To hear though, but. 

01:02:12 Andy 

Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t say them. 

01:02:14 Louise 

You know there’s a job bomb to go with everything from the sciences. Professor Joe focus from the University of New South Wales. When we spoke to him. You’ve really made us question our. 

01:02:23 Louise 

Own thoughts about what is? 

01:02:24 Louise 

And isn’t acceptable for other people to say. 

01:02:28 Joe Forgas 

I think speech should not ever be regulated and suppressed because speech is the medium. Thereby people express their beliefs and their values and however much you disagree with it. If you want them to change, you got to hear it. You will not change them if you. 

01:02:47 Joe Forgas 

Prohibited and that’s why I think a lot of the current trends of political correctness and work and cancer culture a totally counterproductive, because if you start regulating speech and you will create speech with. 

01:03:04 Joe Forgas 

Actually, action and behaviour, which might be criminally punishable. You stop all possibility of social progress and discourse. We have to be able to hear what anybody thinks, even if you disagree with it and there are actually in liberal democracies very few examples up to this point or states. 

01:03:24 Joe Forgas 

Trying to regulate speech, I mean, one example I can think of in Germany. You are not allowed to be a Holocaust denier in Canada. 

01:03:33 Joe Forgas 

Jordan Peterson has been on the record for objecting for complied speech where people have to use particular personal pronouns. 

01:03:42 Joe Forgas 

I personally would be a libertarian. I think all forms of speech, even Holocaust denial, should be allowed so we can debate it and know about it and do something about it. 

01:03:54 Joe Forgas 

Suppressing speech is never the solution to solve any problem. 

01:03:59 Louise 

So if someone says something that. 

01:04:01 Louise 

You don’t want to hear. 

01:04:03 Louise 

Your partner tells you. 

01:04:05 Louise 

That they wonder if they might be more gay than you thought they would be. After five years of a relationship. 

01:04:11 Andy 

Or a family member says that you actively ship around a particular. 

01:04:15 Andy 

Period of time. 

01:04:16 Louise 

Where’s the line at how much you? 

01:04:18 Andy 

But acceptable, and it definitely doesn’t mean that we should accept any malicious language. You know that for Q2 stands only problem get to in these situations, as hard as they are. They do serve to remove us from a bad situation in the short term, but you know what that still needs to be process we? We can’t just keep the extent going. 

01:04:18 Louise 

Have to hear. 

01:04:36 Andy 

Some sustainable forever so you know, like I was saying earlier in the episode where those conversations about that time when my dad died, the conversations that I had with one of my relatives was hard to hear. 

01:04:48 Andy 

Some of the issues they had with me, but I listened. I was prepared to listen and and to give the flip side of that was that when I attempted to be heard. 

01:04:56 Andy 

Myself, I was shut down with them. Too old for this **** so you know that was just put that regular old expectation that the grievances have been and therefore things can just go back to normal and we can just pretend it didn’t happen, which wasn’t going to happen. 

01:05:10 Louise 

And I mean in that situation for me when I finally said the things that I needed to say, I actually did. 

01:05:17 Louise 

I felt like I was heard it. 

01:05:20 Louise 

Wasn’t until later. 

01:05:21 Louise 

That I felt like I was unheard. You know, then, it became obvious that I was only ever told the words that they thought I wanted to hear. 

01:05:29 Andy 

For their own gain. 

01:05:32 Andy 

It’s always about their own game. This same with mine like. OK, so we’ve had this conversation. Let’s shut it down now and therefore we can. 

01:05:39 Louise 

It’s all good. My relationship didn’t end on my 40th birthday. It didn’t end for another couple of months. 

01:05:45 Louise 

And the sexuality wasn’t the trigger in the end that it wasn’t the thing that pulled the trigger, so that’s a whole other story. 

01:05:50 Speaker 3 

No no. 

01:05:53 Andy 

With this thing about using your voice, though, is that you know, I think we we we go in in good faith to have these conversations to say look, you know we need to actually make this right. 

01:06:02 Andy 

So from my point of view, like I didn’t expect to land in a position of feeling like. 

01:06:06 Andy 

A naughty child and we should. 

01:06:08 Andy 

Well, that’s kind of where I shut them out and to some extent I still shut them out because you know, by not having that full two way conversation about everything that happened. 

01:06:16 Andy 

The only normal that happens is me acquiescing turning their line. You know my needs and boundaries are ignored, not met and for them everything is fine. Of course there’s are, but that’s not how it’s not. 

01:06:28 Andy 

It should be and it really does take that goodwill on both sides to actually come in. Listen to each other. 

01:06:34 Andy 

Have a normal conversation and then take responsibility for their own part in that so that things can actually heal. 

01:06:40 Andy 

But if it’s unbalanced, then that’s just going to go back into those old patterns that are unhealthy. Can we stop ourselves from having those conversations because they feel like they’re gonna hurt so much? 

01:06:50 Louise 

It’s so uncomfortable, so when it comes to making decisions and having conversations that we need to and we just too focused on short term pain. 

01:06:58 Andy 

Well, somebody who gave us a really good perspective on that is Professor Eteson AC. 

01:07:04 Louise 

She’s the director. 

01:07:05 Louise 

Of the Matilda Centre for Research in Mental Health and substance use. 

01:07:10 Maree Teesson 

Harder that balance of balancing out with you. Make one choice or another is tide up in short term and long term so the lolly can be really gratifying in the short term. 

01:07:22 Maree Teesson 

But we know we’re going to be putting on weight or we’re going to be increasing the risk of having tooth decay or increasing. 

01:07:30 Maree Teesson 

The risk of longer term heart disease. 

01:07:33 Maree Teesson 

We do often think about what’s right up in front of us and then discount what the consequences could be longer term. 

01:07:41 Maree Teesson 

So one of the things is actually writing it down and acknowledging that they’re a short term, and that there are longer term consequences to what we do. We are incredibly clever as humans. 

01:07:53 Maree Teesson 

At discounting those longer term, it’s like we’re sort of inbuilt bravery machines. We look at the up front. 

01:08:00 Maree Teesson 

And we don’t think about the longer term and sometimes the more serious harms and our brains are wired with that. 

01:08:07 Maree Teesson 

So it’s a challenge to make sure that we identify those and take those into consideration when we’re making our choices. 

01:08:14 Andy 

Tours of the. 

01:08:15 Andy 

Day Jesus told thing, thinking that you think yeah. 

01:08:17 Maree Teesson 

Yeah, that type of long term thinking that’s exactly great example, you got the chocolate box there. I’ll put it off, I’ll I’ll have it today, but I’ll put off the chain. 

01:08:27 Maree Teesson 

Much to tomorrow, I think that comes back to where it’s a good idea of thinking about what are the good things about doing that. 

01:08:35 Maree Teesson 

You’re gonna get the initial gratification, but it maybe not. Some of the good things about doing that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. You’ll have to do if it’s eating that chocolate bar. The humiliation of that sugar. 

01:08:47 Maree Teesson 

Will then end up. You’ll have to do a lot of extra space in order to counter that, so it’s being really explicit about the decision isn’t. 

01:08:55 Maree Teesson 

Just about what’s happening to you right now. The decision is also about what’s going to happen in next week, when every day you eat that chocolate bar reminds. 

01:09:04 Louise 

Me of that is. 

01:09:05 Louise 

Is it the marshmallow experiment where they put the marshmallows in front of the kids in a room and said you can either have one now? 

01:09:11 Louise 

Or you can have. 

01:09:12 Louise 

Five if you wait 15 minutes and. 

01:09:15 Louise 

No, and and. 

01:09:16 Louise 

No one could wait 15 minutes, I think. 

01:09:18 Maree Teesson 

That’s so true. I and kids kids are really good but cheap, so kids are hard wired to get those marshmallows early. 

01:09:22 Speaker 5 

Let me type. 

01:09:28 Maree Teesson 

And that kids. 

01:09:29 Maree Teesson 

You know they’re part of their brain, but should kick in and allow them to do all this decision or work the the front part of the brain. 

01:09:36 Maree Teesson 

The prefrontal cortex isn’t well developed, so it absolutely they’re they’re really wired for taking risks and you actually want them to. You want them experience lots of things in life. 

01:09:48 Maree Teesson 

That’s why kids particularly have trouble with that marshmallow experience. 

01:09:51 Maree Teesson 

Adults we are a bit more brain development. We should be able to kick into gear that that decision part of our brain. 

01:09:57 Louise 

If we intellectually know that we’re better off waiting for 15 marshmallows later instead of 1 Marshmallow now, or if we’re better off, you know, making a healthier choice because alcohol drugs are not doing good stuff for us in the long term, but we emotionally go for the one marshmallow or the booze. How do we switch that thinking like? 

01:10:17 Louise 

Is there steps that we can take that actually help us make those long term goals, something that we? 

01:10:23 Louise 

We can feel like we’re achieving now. 

01:10:25 Maree Teesson 

It’s emotionally and it’s also through habit, so we are also excellent at picking up cues and habit. And the things that we would normally do so part of the way of dealing with this is creating some new habits, so the habit might be that you have two or three or four glasses of wine, even two glasses. 

01:10:45 Maree Teesson 

Wine in the evening. Maybe you have a glass of wine and a glass of water. You get into the habit. 

01:10:50 Maree Teesson 

Always having a glass of water in between having the glass of wine, so part of it is fun learning and then learning new healthier habits so that they become and practising them so they become really second nature. Having a break in and allowing yourself to have a break from alcohol particularly. 

01:11:11 Maree Teesson 

Over, you know setting a time for having that break allows you to experience how you feel without actually having it, so again breaking that habit and breaking that you know expectation. So it’s very much thinking through ways to both. 

01:11:27 Maree Teesson 

Allow you to change that behaviour, but also to allow you to change the way that you think about things and to challenge some of those thoughts that you might think. 

01:11:35 Maree Teesson 

The only way that you can have fun is by drinking or the only way that you can have fun or interacted a party is by drinking. It’s a really interesting experiment to go to a party and test that out. 

01:11:47 Maree Teesson 

Actually have fun at a party without drinking. Now I’m making this sound like it’s super easy and it isn’t and it takes. 

01:11:54 Maree Teesson 

As much practise as it takes as we talked about earlier to change your thinking and change the way that you talk about things, that’s really simple. 

01:12:04 Maree Teesson 

Example of should to change behaviour takes as much practise in and is effortful like it is with the short example. 

01:12:13 Louise 

Changing your thinking. 

01:12:14 Louise 

Is effortful, uh, making change on purpose requires a decent motivation so that you don’t run from something, and you can actually run to something. 

01:12:25 Andy 

It takes the commitment to actually see it through as well. 

01:12:28 Andy 

You know, like you know. 

01:12:29 Andy 

I’ve talked about how I’ve sat with this for. 

01:12:31 Andy 

Probably close to two years now. 

01:12:33 Andy 

And if that’s not convenient, I don’t know what it is, but also it’s not a commitment to say thank you, go away. 

01:12:40 Andy 

It’s actually a commitment from me to say, well, I’m going to have a look at myself. I’m going to actually remove myself from this situation so that I don’t hurt myself anymore with it, but also to actually evaluate what my best. 

01:12:54 Louise 

’cause even if we’ve made that decision out of a place of ****** undone and running from something, we can. 

01:13:00 Louise 

Change the motivation going forward and and bring it back around to something that’s probably more healthy for us, like 2021. 

01:13:06 Louise 

NSW young 

01:13:07 Louise 

Australian of the Year. Nathan Parker did when he spoke to us. He’d been in a bus crash. 

01:13:12 Louise 

His arm was amputated, and. 

01:13:13 Andy 

From the dream of being a pile. 

01:13:15 Andy 

Of oh, never. 

01:13:16 Andy 

Ever loved him? 

01:13:17 Nathan Parker 

I guess I was lucky that it sort of became really apparent when I had that crossroads. It was I I could stay in the military and do another job which would have been an incredible experience and opportunity. But for me I I already felt at that point. 

01:13:29 Nathan Parker 

Must that childhood dream twice and I couldn’t afford to sort of walk away at the end of the day when the chips are down. 

01:13:34 Nathan Parker 

I couldn’t walk away from flying without sort of working out what was possible ’cause I had this this gut feeling deep down, but I knew in 1015 years time I’d be kicking myself that I I didn’t give it a shot and see what was possible. So familiar is very obvious that at that point in time at that crossroads. 

01:13:50 Nathan Parker 

There’s a very strong pull towards that. You need to give this a go and and given that you’ve already potentially lost it twice over, give it one last shot. 

01:13:57 Nathan Parker 

And and say. 

01:13:57 Nathan Parker 

It is possible, but I think it’s definitely challenging. 

01:14:00 Nathan Parker 

It’s it’s taking these days with so many different things that are going on for so many of us it’s it’s hard to narrow down what is it that we’re passionate about and and how do we find our passion? 

01:14:08 Nathan Parker 

How we pursue our passion and that’s something that I’ve been very lucky throughout my life to have. 

01:14:12 Nathan Parker 

Had a very clear passion from the start. 

01:14:14 Louise 

Is that what fueled you when people said that you won’t fly again? It’s so it wasn’t so much. 

01:14:20 Leeanne Carey 

Moving in. 

01:14:20 Nathan Parker 

Wrong, but following your own gut on that that they were wrong. Yeah, I think for me it was about seeing what was possible or I knew deep down I had a sense deep down that I think I can still do this and I was very lucky along the way to have so many incredible people giving opportunities to try. And so it was possible. But I mean even thinking back to my hospital room. 

01:14:41 Nathan Parker 

One of the first things that went up. 

01:14:42 Nathan Parker 

On the wall in my room was a picture of the the fighter jet that I had always hoped to fly, and even in those tough times when it was, I’m struggling to put food in my mouth. 

01:14:50 Nathan Parker 

You know, with only one hand, I look at that and saying, you know, I’ve I’ve. 

01:14:54 Nathan Parker 

Really do this. 

01:14:54 Nathan Parker 

To start moving towards that goal, and there’s no guarantees that I’d. 

01:14:57 Nathan Parker 

Get back there. 

01:14:57 Nathan Parker 

And unfortunately I wasn’t able to to pursue that dream in the long run. But at that point in time that. 

01:15:02 Nathan Parker 

That passion, that dream, and that that goal gave me that inspiration and motivation to to keep pushing through. No. 

01:15:08 Nathan Parker 

Matter how hard things got. 

01:15:09 Louise 

So what I find really amazing about that is that if I was Nathan, I think I would have gone socket. I’m going to be a fighter pilot anyway to prove them wrong. 

01:15:19 Louise 

But he didn’t do it to prove them wrong. He did it because he had that feeling that he was moving towards something that it was right. 

01:15:27 Andy 

That base feeling with himself that this is actually what is really important to me, and if there is another way to get that, then I will do that. 

01:15:37 Louise 

So where does that leave? 

01:15:38 Louise 

Us on our personal stories. 

01:15:46 Louise 

I’ve been I’ve opened a can of worms and we can’t make it through. 

01:15:51 Louise 

I well, the truth is the answer. 

01:15:53 Louise 

To that question is. 

01:15:56 Louise 

Like where humans influx, there’s no perfect ending here. We don’t get to the end of this and and and the stories all wrapped. 

01:16:04 Louise 

Up and it had a. 

01:16:05 Louise 

Happy ending and it was all worth it in the end. 

01:16:08 Louise 

And we’ve achieved this massive thing of clarity. I mean with ******* humans trying to figure it out as we go and make healthier choices that benefit us in the long run. 

01:16:17 Louise 

But those situations aren’t resolved. You’re not friends with the family again, and I’m not friends with the ex. So woo. 

01:16:25 Leeanne Carey 

Yeah, I don’t know. 

01:16:26 Andy 

There are different things that come up through life. 

01:16:28 Andy 

You know well, there’s something at stake, you know? 

01:16:30 Andy 

And I guess we really just need to like Nathan, think about what it is that we actually want, what’s important to us so you know where we can actually be forced into change and run away from something that we just don’t like anymore. 

01:16:41 Andy 

Or there’s really just kind of ground us down for so long when we actually identify what it is that we do want to make a commitment to, that that’s when. 

01:16:50 Andy 

We can really get some energy behind. 

01:16:52 Louise 

It even if we don’t have the answers to where to. 

01:16:56 Louise 

Now I think what’s really clear is that our commitment makes a difference to where we’re headed, how important it is to us, and what we’re prepared to do to get there. 

01:17:04 Louise 

So next time on re frame of mind, how about Richard to someone whose personal story is testament to staying true to your commitment. 

01:17:11 Andy 

Yeah, definitely we have New Zealand professional, endurance athlete author and winesett expert Lisa Tamati. 

01:17:18 Kimberley Norris 

So I went all in and it nearly brought me. 

01:17:21 Speaker 5 

I had my own health dramas that I went through in that period of time because I just blue myself to pieces, but. 

01:17:27 Sally Goldner 

I got my mum worked. 

01:17:30 Andy 

You’ve been hearing our story. Now we really want. 

01:17:32 Andy 

To hear yours. 

01:17:33 Louise 

Connect with at re frame of mind or Instagram Facebook. 

01:17:36 Speaker 5 

Tik T.O.K and Twitter will. 

01:17:37 Andy 

Connect with and welcome Change Media on LinkedIn. 

01:17:40 Louise 

You can also contact us via re frame of dot AU with your stories or suggestions for future topics. 

01:17:46 Andy 

We’d like to thank today’s guests for sharing their personal stories and insights and For more information on any of the subjects guests. 

01:17:53 Andy 

All references used in this episode please see our show notes or re frame of dot AU. 

01:17:58 Louise 

Re frame of mind is a welcome change media production. 



Check out some of our other guests who appear throughout Reframe of Mind: