We’ve all either been through sustained high stress in the workplace or known someone who has, and when we’re encouraged to bring “all of ourselves to work” it usually contains an unspoken parenthesis with the words “except that bit”.
So what happens when the stress becomes so unmanageable that we start to burn out?
How accountable are workplaces for providing an environment that promotes good mental health? And where is the a boundary between workplace stressors and those that can too easily spill in from everyday life?
In this episode of Reframe of Mind, Louise and Andy explore their own experiences with stress and burnout in the workplace with some food for thought from their previous guests Sally Goldner AM, Suzanne Mercier and Hugh Kearns while introducing new guests Jane Madden, Board Director at Black Dog Institute and Workplace Pattern Interruptor, Annie Harvey.
You can connect with Louise & Andy on Reframe of Mind’s social media directly below:
Jump to: Episode Transcript | Show Notes | Other Guests | Gallery
Reframe of Mind contains discussion around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. If you are concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice.
Some of the main crisis lines in Australia are listed on our Mental Health Crisis Resources page, including those that operate 24/7 like Beyond Blue and Lifeline.
Board Director, Black Dog Institute; Chair, Fred Hollows Foundation
Mindfulness expert, author & workplace pattern interrupter
Diversity Trans-relator, Educator, Speaker, Life Coach & Consultant
Imposter Syndrome Expert, Founder Purpose to Profit
Researcher & Educator, Flinders University Founder iThinkwell
Jump to: Episode Transcript | Show Notes | Other Guests | Top of Page
Here’s some extra things you might not know about our guests, as well as some of the things mentioned during the episode.
Jane Madden is on the Board of Directors for the Black Dog Institute , Chair of the Fred Hollows Foundation, and Principal of Brickfielder Insights.
Jane is a highly experienced senior executive with over thirty years experience in Australia’s public sector and diplomatic service, including as Deputy Secretary in the Australian Government at Australia’s trade and investment agency, Austrade; Chief Operating Officer of the Digital Transformation Office and held senior roles within the Department of Resources, Energy and Tourism, and with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT). She has worked extensively overseas, including as Australian Ambassador to UNESCO, Deputy Ambassador to France and Counsellor in Japan.
You can connect with Jane on LinkedIn.
Take the Black Dog Institute’s online mental health checkup here.
Watch a Black Dog Institute playlist for workplace mental health on Youtube below:
Annie works with adults and teens to help maximise their wellbeing and resilience. In our current world of ‘busyness’, she shows us not only how to be STILL just for a few moments, but also shares her own strategies to prevent burnout. All her tools are evidenced based and well researched and she only shares what she uses herself.
Annie works with individuals and groups: from Education to Health & Social Work, from Public to the Corporate sector. Annie offers keynotes, energisers, workshops, training and 1:1 mentoring and coaching.
Check out Annie’s website The Still Effect here.
Watch Annie’s Ted Talk on Laughter:
Watch a series of videos on Mindfulness Annie produced for Wellbeing SA:
Sally Goldner is a strong leader and advocate within her community, and has enormous strengths any good leader would aspire to. She’s been advocating for change long before keyboards became the fertile ground from which we shout. Sally first disclosed as trans in 1985, at which time it had only been seven years since the first Mardi Gras in Sydney, which in 1978 was actually a protest march.
In 1999, Sally became a founding committee member of what became Transgender Victoria which, in 2013 was a major contributor to additions to the federal Sex Discrimination Act covering gender identity, sexual orientation, and intersex status.
Listen to Episode 10 of Reframe of Mind, where we learnt more of Sally’s story:
Sally is a founding member of Transgender Victoria:
Read some of the articles Sally has written for SBS
Watch Sally discuss why we need to be doing better in aged care:
Sally has also advised diverse committees and advisory groups including:
● the LGBTI Police Working Group (and its predecessors)
● the Victorian government LGBTI Justice Working Group from 2006-10 and 2015 to 2017
● Hobsons Bay LGBTI Advisory Group (2011-2016)
● Manningham Mental Health Advisory group (2013-2018)
● Jewish Community Council of Victoria LGBTI advisory group (2009-2012)
Suzanne is a performance catalyst working with business owners, entrepreneurs and leaders to help them recognise and develop their potential. She is considered to be Australia’s expert on identifying and moving beyond limiting mindsets including the Imposter Syndrome.
Listen to Episode 8 of Reframe of Mind, where we learnt more about Suzanne’s story:
Suzanne’s Purpose to Profit website.
Read Suzanne’s book: Liberate Leadership.
Watch Suzanne talk about Imposter Syndrome on her Youtube channel:
Hugh Kearns is recognised internationally as a public speaker, educator and researcher. His areas of expertise include self-management, positive psychology, work-life balance, learning and creativity.
Hugh lectures and researches at Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia. He is widely recognised for his ability to take the latest research in psychology and education and apply it to high-performing people and groups. As a co-author with Maria Gardiner, he has published ten books which are in high demand both in Australia and internationally.
Listen to Episode 9 of Reframe of Mind where we discuss The Imposter Cycle with Hugh:
Watch a keynote speech from Hugh Kearns on Imposter Syndrome here:
Jump to: Episode Transcript | Other Guests | Gallery | Top of Page
Read along with the Youtube episode here:
Youtube transcript:
00:00
we acknowledge the Yuggera and Kaurna
00:01
nations as traditional custodians of the
00:03
land on which we work live and learn and
00:06
their continuing connection with the
00:07
land waters and community we pay our
00:09
respects to them and their elders past
00:11
and present all content related to this
00:13
program is for general informational
00:15
purposes only and contains stories and
00:17
discussion around mental health that may
00:20
be disturbing to some listeners if you
00:22
are concerned about yourself or someone
00:24
you know please seek professional and
00:26
individual advice and support
00:28
more details are contained in our show
00:30
Notes
00:31
tired of being told you can’t exist in a
00:34
Vacuum
00:35
well now you can suck at 3 000.
00:39
we’ve all had those pesky relationships
00:41
we just can’t get right
00:44
get ready to suck it and hoover up all
00:47
those people who don’t agree with you
00:51
eliminate all of those unnecessary
00:53
attachments and leave those dirt bags
00:56
for dust
00:58
the new suck it 3000 is everything
01:02
you’ve been looking for
01:05
when you suck it you’re always right
01:08
because there’s nobody left to argue
01:10
with wet or dry
01:13
suck it to remove those awkward
01:16
situations you find yourself in all over
01:19
Again
01:20
and did we mention you’ll never find an
01:23
opposing opinion ever again but don’t
01:26
take my word for it
01:30
i’ve been a fan of the socket range
01:32
since the socket 1000 got rid of my
01:35
toxic high school friends
01:37
then the sucker 2000 got rid of my toxic
01:40
husband and all of my toxic colleagues
01:43
as someone who’s always surrounded by so
01:46
many toxic people i can’t wait to see
01:49
what the sucker 3000 cleans us
01:52
i had to keep changing jobs for decades
01:55
because there’d be toxic bosses
01:57
but with the suck at 3000
02:00
there’s no one left to boss me around
02:04
my toxic girlfriend kept nagging me to
02:06
pick up the dirty wet towels off the
02:07
floor and clean up my messes when i just
02:09
wanted to decompress after i came home
02:11
from work and playing the xbox then i
02:14
got the sucker 3000 underwear no more
02:16
nagging and i just stopped using towels
02:18
problem solved
02:20
what are you waiting for
02:22
call now and start living in your own
02:24
vacuum today
02:26
one two suck it three thousand
02:30
get vacuuming today and see what
02:33
existing without those annoying other
02:35
people interacting with you is really
02:37
like
02:40
i started living in a vacuum and i love
02:43
it
02:45
hello
02:48
hello don’t be antibacks act now
02:52
this is the booster you’ve been waiting
02:54
for
02:56
but wait there’s more call in the next
02:59
10 minutes and receive this turbo really
03:02
brush off head
03:04
perfect for all those related by blood
03:07
stains
03:09
what are you waiting for
03:11
one two
03:12
suck it three thousand
03:16
i feel attacked andy yeah well at least
03:18
now we’re mainly feeling attacked by
03:20
ourselves though that’s us not living in
03:22
a vacuum and this
03:24
is reframe of mind
03:26
the podcast that cuts through the
03:27
platter shoots and gets to the core of
03:29
living authentically challenging our
03:30
assumptions and improving mental health
03:32
with the guidance of good science
03:33
philosophy and learning from other
03:35
people’s lived experiences we’re your
03:37
hosts andy leroy and louise poole and
03:39
we’re at episode 11 of reframe of mind
03:42
now andy can you believe it i can but
03:45
only because we plotted out 42 episodes
03:47
what i can’t believe is people are still
03:48
listening oh well
03:51
it’s cause we’re awesome hello maybe
03:52
it’s because we’re sharing our deep dark
03:54
secrets or dark deep secrets according
03:58
to the paper um
04:00
we’re at that part of our journey where
04:02
we’ve been navigating our feelings on
04:04
some deeply personal matters and
04:05
responding in ways that support us look
04:07
as best we know how yeah and we’ve also
04:10
at this point embarked on a business
04:12
venture together called welcome change
04:13
media and started realizing that similar
04:16
challenges are cropping up for us
04:17
psychologically as we got more invested
04:20
in that
04:21
like your little voice that sounded like
04:23
a paradon repeat at times saying we
04:25
don’t live in a vacuum
04:27
we don’t live in a vacuum
04:31
as flattering as the description is
04:34
it is kind of accurate
04:36
but we wanted to make sure that we
04:38
weren’t clearing the decks only to buy
04:39
the chairs back from a second-hand
04:41
dealer to create the same effect that
04:43
reminds me of very much of your line in
04:45
the sand analogy that i didn’t get then
04:47
and still don’t get now
04:50
but i’m sure someone that’s listening
04:52
we’ll get it
04:53
so long as it’s not the titanic we’re
04:55
all good and when we spoke to sally
04:56
goldner am last episode it got us
04:59
thinking about whether what we’ve
05:00
embarked on is really something new or
05:02
if we’ve just been trying to recreate
05:03
what we’ve been doing all along
05:06
we hear a lot well sometimes we don’t
05:09
hear about organizations and values and
05:11
then sometimes yeah we’ve got an
05:13
organisation that points to a value
05:15
statement i had a really good diagram
05:17
about this on a webinar i was on a few
05:20
months ago and imagine the proverbial
05:22
archery target and sure the center the
05:24
bullseye in the center is values and
05:26
then the next ring out is behaviours and
05:29
so the problem is when behaviours aren’t
05:32
consistently ring don’t reinforce those
05:34
values or where people don’t look at
05:36
their behaviors and go oh hang on we’re
05:39
not matching here that’s where things
05:41
break down
05:42
so we’re going to take a deep dive into
05:44
organizational values later in this
05:46
episode and how this can impact
05:48
employers and employees yeah and jane
05:50
madden board member for the black dog
05:52
institute and chair for the fred hollows
05:54
foundation chats to us a little bit
05:55
later about mental health in the
05:57
workplace
05:58
mental health is everyone’s business and
06:00
i think it doesn’t matter whether you’re
06:03
a student or in
06:05
perhaps in a leadership role with you in
06:07
government or the not-for-profit sector
06:09
that it is everyone’s business and i
06:11
think the covert crisis has just brought
06:14
a new awareness and encouraged even more
06:16
conversations about mental health in
06:19
australia
06:21
and mindfulness author and burnout
06:23
expert annie harvey walks us through
06:25
what to look out for and what can help
06:28
i think it’s really critical that people
06:29
know how close they are to what we call
06:31
falling off the cliff because once you
06:32
fall off once you burn out it takes a
06:35
really long time to heal it’s not like
06:37
bouncing back as we like to call it
06:39
after a couple of weeks it can take six
06:40
months or even up to two years to
06:42
actually heal from that
06:44
so i think we need to take this back to
06:47
the day we first met louise okay hang on
06:50
let me get my heart out
06:51
[Music]
06:54
okay ah
06:56
okay now that now we’re back in time it
06:58
was wet season
07:00
2009 tell someone that that’s a very
07:03
darwin northern territory term um it is
07:06
before i go googling wet season and it
07:09
comes up with not families friendly
07:10
results
07:11
exactly
07:13
so it was january 2009 and i was flying
07:17
into darwin for the very first time i’d
07:18
never been there before it was very
07:19
exciting i’d lived in sydney all my life
07:22
basically pretty much and i was invited
07:25
to come and work for a radio station on
07:28
their drive program and to be their
07:30
music director and i was so excited it’s
07:32
great it was my first commercial radio
07:33
gig and i gave you that job you did so
07:36
you owe me now
07:37
[Laughter]
07:39
well
07:40
we’ll get down to the accountancy of
07:42
what
07:43
you always want a bit later but
07:46
so you you left that job you left me
07:48
there alone i mean i did whatever
07:51
um
07:53
and so we didn’t work professionally
07:55
together again until we started this
07:56
business so that’s what i mean 10 12
07:59
years well look i left darwin in 2010 so
08:03
that’s when i moved to adelaide so yeah
08:05
it’s 12 years
08:06
pretty much 11 years at a lapse by the
08:08
time we started talking about welcome
08:11
change media and you went into which
08:13
industries okay so when i moved to
08:16
adelaide i went and managed a community
08:18
radio station for a while
08:20
and then i moved around a little bit
08:22
career-wise so i took various leadership
08:24
positions in a few different places so
08:27
i’ve managed things from a little team
08:30
in aged care doing resident lifestyle
08:32
through to telecommunications and
08:34
internet i even worked on a help desk at
08:36
one point teaching people that’s why i’m
08:37
so good with the computer to turn their
08:39
computers on and off switch it on it’s
08:41
power cycle again yeah power cycle right
08:43
um
08:44
it’s out of scope madam i’m sorry i
08:46
don’t deal with microsoft mail but i’m
08:48
willing to help you because i’ve got
08:50
great customer service skills that kind
08:52
of stuff and you know i was quite happy
08:54
in that because i worked in call centers
08:57
before working in radio and i’d worked
08:59
in office jobs you know i’d been in a
09:01
government position before you employed
09:03
me i was seven years working for a
09:05
government agency before that so i guess
09:07
i went back to a comfort zone you know i
09:09
didn’t enter media from a young age so
09:12
it didn’t feel like it was necessarily
09:14
my patch like that so i i went back and
09:16
did other things and i was quite happy
09:18
yeah but there was still that itch
09:20
there’s always that itch
09:21
my journey is i suppose the opposite of
09:23
yours i did start in media from a young
09:25
age i’ve often said i’ve never had a
09:27
real job because every paid job i’ve
09:29
ever had has been working in commercial
09:31
media in some way shape or form i don’t
09:33
know what it’s like to do something else
09:35
i don’t know what it’s like to stack
09:36
shelves at woolies neither do i
09:38
[Laughter]
09:40
my world has been this uh insular media
09:43
thing and so after we parted ways in
09:45
darwin i ended up moving to a couple of
09:47
other jobs but eventually making my way
09:49
to brisbane and being on the radio doing
09:52
the music
09:53
i spent eight and a bit years pretty
09:56
much in the number one and two slot of
09:58
brisbane commercial radio in the
10:00
mornings so while i was assisting in
10:02
some ways to lift people to the toilet
10:04
you were actually speaking to people in
10:06
a prime time position well they were on
10:08
the toilet probably they were probably
10:10
on the toilet i would i would have been
10:12
[Laughter]
10:14
directly to your loo
10:16
i was there with you when you were in
10:18
the car on the way to work and you
10:19
picked your nose and you thought no one
10:21
could see you because you were in the
10:22
car and it’s like a little fortress
10:25
motion by motion with louise poole
10:28
i was there with you when you were
10:30
shopping and you heard someone talk
10:32
right up to the start of a song
10:34
and you thought why don’t they just play
10:36
the song
10:37
why can’t they just play the intro and
10:39
not talk over it in the wreck
10:41
because in radio world we have these
10:43
competitions where we talk to the post
10:45
so you’re never ever going to get a
10:47
situation where they’re not going to
10:48
talk over it that kind of wraps up i
10:50
don’t know that’s ten years in three
10:52
minutes right it’s about i think so
10:55
that’s the very very shortened edition
10:57
do you need to play the outgoing harper
10:59
will be good um i mean i can get it
11:00
should i i’ll play it backwards hang on
11:05
[Applause]
11:07
it sounds a lot like it does forwards
11:09
doesn’t it yeah it does doesn’t sound a
11:11
lot different no so we started this
11:12
business welcome change media with both
11:14
of those backgrounds that’s where we
11:16
come from and we got together in 2020 to
11:18
make it and we genuinely wanted to make
11:20
something that has never been done
11:22
before but the way we imagine it to be
11:25
yeah and boy was it easy for us to let
11:27
our imaginations run wild with the
11:29
excitement of everything we wanted to do
11:31
and what we knew we were capable of
11:32
doing and i think at that time when we
11:34
first started what you needed to work on
11:36
was letting go of being that underling
11:38
or assistant that old boss dynamic that
11:40
you had with me because we were 50 50 in
11:42
a partnership yeah and i think in the
11:44
same way you need to let go of from
11:47
doing everything all the time to justify
11:48
making things that you want to make
11:50
cold out
11:53
ouch and personally i think we’ve been
11:55
changed by the experiences in between
11:58
that led us to this point as well
12:01
[Music]
12:02
so i think we need to throw back now to
12:05
just a little under a year ago um we
12:08
just started the business episode one is
12:10
a really good point to that beginning
12:13
where my radio career had ended and andy
12:16
had experienced a major shift in family
12:18
dynamics after his dad had died um we
12:20
just gotten welcome change media going
12:23
and then we had to take on some other
12:25
opinions yeah so as we’re starting the
12:28
new venture together excited about all
12:30
the possibilities this is where we
12:32
started to have to contend with our
12:33
partners concerns about money not coming
12:35
in while we focused on building things
12:37
the way we wanted to in the right way it
12:39
has and it still does at times lead us
12:42
to wonder if we’re making decisions that
12:44
are right for us or if they’re ones that
12:46
we feel like we have to make to be
12:48
successful yeah we don’t want to just go
12:50
around taking money off any random sort
12:52
of person that wants to give it to us
12:54
because we need to make sure that what
12:55
we’re helping them to promote is also in
12:57
line with our values it’s that
12:58
authenticity isn’t it it is yeah and a
13:02
couple of episodes ago in episode nine
13:04
we met hugh kearns who is a lecturer and
13:06
researcher in the area of high
13:07
performance at flinders university and
13:09
hugh gave us an interesting perspective
13:11
on this related to the imposter syndrome
13:14
we sometimes use our own imposter
13:16
syndrome to deflect that onto other
13:19
people an example i’m thinking of was
13:20
recently when luis and i played an early
13:23
audio draft to some of our friends our
13:26
significant others consistently between
13:28
the two of them told us that our part of
13:31
it wasn’t that great but the other
13:32
persons was which was a bit strange
13:36
yeah we’re still holding it against them
13:38
yes well
13:39
well first of all um i suppose as an
13:42
outsider observing or i’d be thinking
13:44
well let’s look at the facts here you
13:45
know i don’t know maybe that’s true it
13:47
is the case no let’s not listen to it or
13:49
maybe and again it’ll probably be to do
13:52
with their expectations of you as well
13:53
they’ll be thinking well you have done
13:54
so you should do more or if the other
13:56
person has never talked before maybe
13:58
they were good because they started so
13:59
people have a whole range of
14:00
expectations so i suppose what i’d be
14:02
trying to do is sit down objectively and
14:03
look at it and go what is going on here
14:06
was that the case and it could be maybe
14:07
the present maybe the person you’re
14:09
interviewing was just awesome that
14:10
sounds brilliant and uh
14:12
or maybe you did get it wrong or maybe
14:13
not and so again uh without actually
14:16
having seen the event i’m not so sure
14:18
what would really be going on there so
14:19
yeah so i i i’ll be having a little chat
14:21
with you sticking with other and say
14:23
well you could be nice here as well yeah
14:25
it was just an interesting um sidetrack
14:26
for us because normally we turn to our
14:29
significant others family friends for
14:32
the default praise and that’s often
14:34
something that we’ll use to say oh well
14:35
you know they would say that because
14:37
that’s right yeah yeah because we’re so
14:38
closely linked um just seemed like a
14:40
really odd turnaround yeah
14:43
here’s a little secret you can tell your
14:44
family as well or anyone but when
14:46
anybody ever asks you for feedback they
14:48
probably don’t want feedback at all they
14:50
just want someone to tell you that you
14:51
were right
14:53
[Laughter]
14:55
this is a
14:56
a little relationship tip you learn
14:58
early on in life you know when your
14:59
partner asks you know what do you really
15:00
think
15:01
that’s not what they mean
15:03
i love it
15:04
i love it that’s right
15:08
when you’re when your partner is trying
15:09
on clothes how does this look on me this
15:11
looks great
15:13
yes it’s amazing great in that so yeah
15:15
so you got to be a little bit careful
15:17
about uh
15:18
why people give feedback or when they
15:19
ask for it you know how honest do you
15:21
really want to be
15:23
so what you said actually caused us to
15:25
have a think about our expectations that
15:27
we’re placing on ourselves andy i think
15:28
it’s time to
15:30
get out the heart
15:31
go for it
15:33
[Music]
15:35
so cast your mind back again um
15:38
because this our story is taking place
15:40
in two different timelines it’s starting
15:42
to be uh very tenet here um
15:45
not to get too revolving doors about at
15:47
all but
15:48
um because we’re telling you a story uh
15:51
around stuff that was happening to us
15:52
when we were first interviewing these
15:54
guests and it was last year so last
15:56
episode you heard from sally golden am
15:59
in our real time now but we actually
16:02
spoke to sally golden up almost a year
16:04
ago in the other timeline yeah and i
16:07
think it’s fair to say that we were both
16:09
in pretty different head spaces at the
16:11
time from where we were coming from on
16:13
our own personal journeys you know for
16:15
me you know we’ve said different parts
16:17
of recapping the series so far that i
16:19
just lost my father and that’s true and
16:22
he still hasn’t come back because he
16:23
died but where i was within all that as
16:26
well not to be too flippant about it is
16:28
that my whole
16:30
model of the world changed when he died
16:33
because
16:34
the family of orientation which i’ve
16:36
covered as a concept
16:38
some episodes back episode one i think
16:39
that was now anybody who cares to listen
16:41
back to that one it kind of speaks to
16:43
the family that you’re born into
16:45
traditionally if you are living the
16:48
prescribed heterosexual life you’ll go
16:50
and find a partner you’ll have children
16:52
and then you’ll create your own family
16:54
of procreation so when my father died
16:57
that was the linchpin of my family of
16:59
orientation that was then gone so then
17:02
the family tree splits into its own vows
17:05
and you know i’m the end i’m the
17:06
beginning and the end of my my branch so
17:09
i don’t have any children and you know
17:10
i’ve talked about that in different ways
17:13
in different kind of emotional states
17:15
over the years i’m quite okay with all
17:17
of that you know but at that point this
17:20
was all very raw for me when we were
17:21
speaking to sally so it kind of became
17:24
apparent to me at one point that even
17:26
though i have been out as gay since i
17:30
was 24 which is you know a good 26 years
17:32
or so ago now i still acted in certain
17:35
ways to shield people from what i
17:37
thought was unacceptable about that part
17:40
of me so you know the relationships that
17:43
i have had were accepted by my family
17:46
and my partners were accepted by my
17:47
family and for that you know i’m really
17:49
grateful and it shouldn’t even have to
17:51
be an issue or something to be having to
17:53
say that i’m grateful for or declare
17:55
that i’m grateful for because it should
17:57
just be
17:58
here’s andy’s partner you know but it’s
18:00
not always the case and there are
18:02
certain things that i’ve mentioned that
18:04
have happened growing up as well where
18:06
before i even i was aware that i was gay
18:08
but i became aware that my family didn’t
18:11
approve of gay people very early in life
18:14
and thankfully that had changed by the
18:16
time they actually realized that they
18:18
had someone who was gay in their own
18:19
family mostly
18:21
so you know there’s all of this editing
18:23
of your personality and self-editing
18:26
we’re doing that to ourselves yeah
18:27
absolutely self-editing is is definitely
18:30
what’s going on there because we want to
18:32
make sure that we are projecting an
18:35
acceptable version of ourselves to the
18:37
people that we love because if we don’t
18:39
we’ll be rejected um which uh
18:42
another throwback and i i’ve put the
18:44
harp away temporarily but um
18:47
episode five we spoke to joe fargus
18:49
about that in regards to tribalism um
18:52
and and that concept of being rejected
18:54
from the tribe and how evolutionarily
18:56
that wasn’t a good thing because you
18:58
know being thrown out of the tribe meant
19:00
dead eaten by a tiger those feelings
19:02
still hang over even though we’re no
19:04
longer living in you know the jungle so
19:07
to come back to the point of where i was
19:09
also psychologically when we were
19:11
speaking to sally you know all of this
19:13
stuff that we’ve spoken to joe about is
19:15
also really really pivotal in how i’m
19:18
starting to really relate to myself now
19:20
as well because suddenly at this point i
19:22
wanted to break free from just passively
19:24
accepting other people’s comments and
19:26
other people’s opinions and trying to
19:28
mold myself to them because you know
19:30
that kind of says that their truth is
19:32
more important than me or my truth so
19:35
you know this is kind of where some of
19:37
the questions that i’m asking and some
19:39
of the insights that i’m saying to glean
19:40
from these conversations are really
19:42
starting to make a real impact on me
19:43
valuing myself fully valuing myself and
19:46
it’s tricky too because one of the
19:48
things you’ve maintained from the
19:49
beginning is as we’ve been talking this
19:51
whole thing is that you don’t want the
19:52
relationships that you already have with
19:54
people that you love to end um but you
19:56
want to rebuild them in a way that’s
19:57
authentic and honest and honest for you
19:59
when the timing’s right yeah exactly so
20:02
you know when i talk about certain
20:03
patterns of behavior i talk about a
20:05
tendency for
20:07
families or friendship groups i don’t
20:09
know whether it’s necessarily an
20:11
australian thing or whether it’s
20:12
particular to certain types of people or
20:15
certain people but there is this whole
20:17
situation where we find a common a
20:20
common like weakling to yeah to set
20:23
ourselves on so it’s either your typical
20:26
laughing stock or it’s your typical
20:27
person who is the villain or you know
20:30
insert other here if we all get together
20:33
and other somebody else then we can have
20:35
something in common that’s right and
20:37
that’s that tribal sameness that we
20:39
build around that and i’d noticed over a
20:42
lot of years that that pattern of
20:44
relating had crept into a lot of my
20:47
relationships not just family but i
20:49
could pinpoint it from friendship
20:50
circles from years ago and even looking
20:53
at recent friendships as well i can
20:55
still see that trying to creep in and
20:57
i’ve really got to pull myself back and
21:00
remind myself that that’s not actually
21:02
who i am and not actually what i want
21:04
and if i keep participating in it then
21:05
i’m only going to keep getting it do you
21:07
think you were feeling that you weren’t
21:09
equal to everybody else oh yeah
21:11
absolutely what people say rings true
21:13
when they say you know if somebody is
21:15
talking about somebody else that way
21:16
what are they saying about you because i
21:19
have a lot of empathy because i actually
21:22
do listen to people and do relate to
21:23
them and do try to put myself in their
21:25
shoes that then extends to hang on a
21:27
minute so
21:29
what’s wrong with me
21:30
now like if if this person is
21:33
worthy of being laughed at for this
21:34
reason then what am i worthy of being
21:36
laughed at for how am i weird what am i
21:38
doing that’s you know not acceptable so
21:41
yeah there are lots of ways that i felt
21:43
like i wasn’t equal i can talk about
21:45
this in terms of okay let’s go right
21:47
back to childhood let’s go back i’m
21:48
gonna get the height
21:50
look i think you’re gonna need a
21:51
harpsichord for this one because we’re
21:53
going back to medieval times i don’t
21:55
have a button for that
21:59
[Laughter]
22:03
that’s a distant memory of harper
22:05
and his first appearance in an interview
22:07
i don’t have a harpsichord it turns out
22:08
i have a harp and a cat meow and a cat
22:11
called harpo yelling
22:14
so close enough
22:16
being the youngest child in my
22:17
experience manifested in me feeling
22:21
inadequate in a lot of ways because i
22:23
was always the one that had to be taught
22:25
i was always the one that didn’t know
22:26
enough i was always the one that thought
22:27
they knew better and didn’t actually
22:28
know that kind of it’s taken a
22:31
long time for me to grow out of that
22:33
mindset and to take myself out of that
22:35
and to actually value myself and to
22:37
value the experience that i’ve got
22:38
because when i interact with other
22:40
people outside of that dynamic they
22:42
don’t see that person they don’t see
22:43
that version of me i’ve commented before
22:46
how a previous partner would say to me
22:48
that when i was with my family i was
22:50
completely different person and it’s
22:51
true because i was re-entering that old
22:54
script that old pattern of behavior that
22:57
i felt that i had to to be acceptable
23:00
otherwise
23:02
so yeah i mean to come back to your
23:04
question about whether i feel equal or
23:05
not like a lot of the times no and i
23:07
know that came out as well early on in
23:10
our business relationship in our
23:11
partnership where i kept referring to
23:13
you as the one in charge or you know
23:15
feeling like you were the boss or the
23:17
overarching kind of waiting for me to
23:19
give the final approval on something
23:20
that we do yeah yeah yeah because that’s
23:22
always how i’ve worked as well i’ve
23:23
always gone to my boss and gone approved
23:25
not approved whatever when probably i
23:28
didn’t even necessarily need to do that
23:30
so
23:31
at this stage of the game when we’re
23:32
talking to sally in that interview but
23:35
certainly now as well you know i’d never
23:36
be happy to return to what was business
23:38
as usual you know living in that same
23:40
autopilot way of relating then walking
23:43
away and feeling privately undervalued
23:46
and that i wasn’t an equal in my
23:47
relationships whether it was family or
23:49
friends or business partners i think
23:51
this part of the interview with sally
23:53
really speaks to what you’re talking
23:54
about
23:55
i kind of feel also maybe i’ve done
23:57
myself a disservice by towing the line
23:59
for all of those years and not standing
24:00
up for who i actually am i think there’s
24:02
mixed thoughts there i mean hindsight’s
24:04
a wonderful thing and we can only keep
24:07
growing ourselves i think that that’s
24:09
the responsibility we have to ourselves
24:11
as an individual and then to each other
24:13
i’m going to leap into something that’s
24:15
been a bit of a pep topic lately and
24:17
that’s about leadership you know to me
24:20
leadership is about strengthening i’m
24:22
going to be bold and try to define it
24:24
leadership is about strengthening other
24:26
people but we can only do more of that
24:29
and do it more effectively when we
24:30
strengthen ourselves and that means
24:32
growing ourselves and i’m learning
24:34
things and i’m still doing it
24:37
so it’s funny how you said that at the
24:39
time we spoke to sally originally you
24:41
were kind of referring to me for the
24:43
decisions and letting me take the lead
24:45
on things because that was that old
24:47
dynamic that we had in place that old
24:48
boss employee dynamic because actually
24:51
when it came to talking to sally um for
24:53
the first time i don’t know if you
24:54
noticed this in the interview but i
24:57
let you run most of the first i suppose
25:00
first 20 minutes or so of the interview
25:02
because i was at a place where i wasn’t
25:05
really ready to claim ownership of parts
25:08
of myself
25:10
which i pointed out afterwards when we
25:11
heard the interview back and i went
25:14
that’s interesting that was an
25:16
interesting way to phrase that what did
25:17
you mean by that well look after
25:20
okay after we were speaking to sally for
25:22
i think it was probably about maybe 15
25:24
or 20 minutes and sally is
25:26
lovely and an absolute riot of a person
25:29
and she has a way of making you feel
25:31
very comfortable i think the
25:33
conversation got very deep and personal
25:35
and it was the first time in any
25:37
interview that i told someone
25:40
this
25:42
i often talk about like this idea of
25:44
comp head because i feel like i’m a late
25:47
blooming identifying as not straight and
25:49
that’s because of like that wasn’t it’s
25:51
just you know wasn’t a thing you know i
25:54
if if there’s an attraction to men then
25:56
i must be straight until you look at it
25:58
and go well what about all the other
26:00
things that you’re not admitting or
26:02
talking about and those are internal
26:04
biases that i had you know i i think in
26:07
my early uh 20s i probably would have
26:09
said oh i’m very straight but also in
26:11
the same sentence said
26:13
but i don’t really find men all that
26:14
attractive and women are far more
26:16
far more attractive um but that’s just
26:19
do you get what i mean sally yeah yeah
26:22
look we have these emotions that take
26:24
deep roots and as i say then they’re
26:26
buried under that top layer of coming
26:29
out in the first place and then we’ve
26:31
all got stuff as a person i suppose that
26:34
combines in with it as well and if you
26:36
if a person is a heterosexual cisgender
26:38
etc then
26:40
maybe they don’t think to tackle it but
26:42
i know for me i found that once i sort
26:44
of started going down the rabbit hole
26:47
sometimes i didn’t really want to keep
26:49
going but i suppose i did but it is
26:51
about wanting to learn and taking
26:53
responsibility and
26:55
having the willingness and ability to to
26:58
face these things and some of those
27:00
things as i say can be too strong to
27:03
face that’s not easy and so that we can
27:05
remain blocked
27:07
and that was something that really it
27:09
wasn’t comfortable for me that’s why i
27:11
stuttered all over that and you so
27:14
kindly made fun of me for it after
27:16
[Laughter]
27:17
well you know i mean it’s easy for me
27:20
isn’t it you know i’ve been like coming
27:22
out for 26 years you’ve been a late
27:23
blooming identifying as not straight for
27:25
26 years
27:28
kind of not the same flavor as you
27:31
certainly but yes
27:34
do you know
27:35
okay
27:36
when we started working together like
27:41
[Music]
27:43
when we started working together for the
27:45
second incarnation back in 2021 yeah
27:48
we’re in 2022 now yeah god we’ve lost to
27:50
you somewhere um
27:52
i think really a few weeks into us
27:54
working together you said something and
27:56
i forget what it i forget what it was um
27:59
and then i said well actually um because
28:02
you had no idea that i wasn’t straight
28:04
either no i didn’t and we were talking a
28:08
lot around about what kind of groups we
28:10
could actually try and you know seek
28:13
interview sources from and what kind of
28:16
messages that we wanted to support or
28:18
not support or otherwise and then the
28:21
conversation turned at one point to you
28:24
actually coming out to me as pen and at
28:26
that point in just the the general life
28:28
thing i think maybe three or four people
28:31
knew and that was it yeah i’d i had
28:34
realized it and come to that
28:36
understanding a few years earlier um but
28:38
you know being in a heterosexual
28:40
identifying relationship at the time i
28:42
had felt that i didn’t get to claim
28:44
myself as part of you know an lgbt qaa
28:48
plus kind of community as long as i’m
28:51
presenting in a heterosexual
28:52
relationship and so that was one of the
28:54
reasons why i didn’t say anything about
28:56
it
28:57
my family by the way were in the number
29:00
of people i hadn’t told i only told my
29:02
mother just before this podcast was
29:04
released in case she listened to it but
29:06
she didn’t so you know didn’t have to um
29:10
lucky
29:12
it was something that i felt really
29:14
uncomfortable saying it is though coming
29:16
out it’s never easy you know it’s
29:19
especially the first time you do it
29:20
because there is so much risk you know i
29:23
have been through coming out experiences
29:25
in all of the 26 years since i first
29:27
came out because people make an
29:30
assumption that you’re heterosexual you
29:31
know it it comes down to those moments
29:33
where in a nursing home just doing an
29:36
activity with one of the residents they
29:38
said to me have you got any kids how
29:39
many kids have you got and i said no i
29:42
don’t have any kids oh how come you know
29:44
and so the conversation goes it’s
29:46
constantly
29:48
bucking against those assumptions of
29:50
society that you’re a certain gender
29:52
you’re a certain age therefore one plus
29:55
one equals two and
29:57
humanity’s not like that um so it’s not
30:00
easy 2017. i should um do i need a
30:02
double harp for this i don’t i think so
30:04
i think you need harp with a little
30:06
squeak from harpo at the end
30:10
we’re gonna have to produce that later
30:11
we’re gonna have to produce that later
30:12
um
30:13
it’s a har papo
30:15
2017 uh marriage equality survey
30:18
traumatizing for good lord yes the
30:20
lgbtqia plus community um because again
30:24
somebody’s human rights their their
30:26
right to just even exist as a person is
30:29
up for debate um everyone’s got an
30:31
opinion and everyone wants to tell you
30:32
to it yes and whether they agree with it
30:34
or not whether it has anything to do
30:36
with them or not yeah great thanks for
30:38
sharing your opinion um go away um that
30:41
for me at that time uh before that i
30:44
probably would have told you i
30:45
identified as straight and i probably
30:47
would have believed that about myself
30:49
except then when the marriage equality
30:51
survey came about i was really angry and
30:55
i was really hurt i was really upset by
30:58
the fact that you know
31:00
not just from a human rights point of
31:02
view but
31:03
the the persecution of
31:05
that community i had to ask myself why
31:08
was i so passionate and um affected by
31:12
that and it’s also very difficult if
31:14
you’re feeling confusion at the very
31:16
least to then you know put yourself out
31:19
there as even an ally because then that
31:22
would turn the headlights straight
31:24
around to you and there you are speaking
31:27
up on behalf of a group and why are you
31:28
doing that you know because people don’t
31:30
do that unless they’ve got a personal
31:32
stake in it it was the common assumption
31:34
so one of the things that i mentioned
31:36
with sally in that interview was that
31:38
the marriage equality survey was really
31:40
the first time that i mentioned i
31:43
suppose you know mainstream lgbtqia
31:46
issues on commercial radio um and i felt
31:49
uncomfortable doing that even on on the
31:52
morning that they were announcing the
31:54
results it was you know it was just
31:56
before or just after 9am there was
31:58
scheduled to come at 9am and i’m sitting
32:00
there in my studio and i’m um watching
32:02
and waiting and my first break goes to
32:04
air and it’s like i think i said
32:06
something along the lines of whatever
32:07
happens this morning um with the results
32:10
i just you know want the
32:13
plus community listening to know that i
32:16
hear you when i’m here for you or
32:17
something like that i will say so that
32:19
morning i i said that in the first break
32:21
i basically said you know
32:23
the community has my support um i hope
32:25
this turns out for us today um the
32:28
proverbial us which is not really
32:30
implicating anybody it’s the kind of
32:33
you know no one no one who straight
32:35
notices the proverbial us and then the
32:37
results came through and so like five
32:38
minutes later you know um they did the
32:41
good news about the results and blah
32:43
blah blah blah blah then that morning
32:45
not not very long after that i said to
32:47
someone in the building and i i don’t i
32:50
don’t want to i don’t want to out them
32:52
in a non you know out way but i did say
32:55
how wonderful is that this morning that
32:58
the survey came through like that and
33:00
the majority of people support marriage
33:03
equality and they said back to me it’s
33:05
good to see democracy works
33:09
and that’s when i realized that that
33:11
person didn’t feel the same way i felt
33:13
about it
33:14
[Music]
33:17
thank you it is good democracy works
33:19
they obviously made a difference
33:21
selection on the survey form then i did
33:24
they said it’s good to see democracy
33:26
works
33:29
um
33:33
look you know
33:34
going back to what joe fergus said to us
33:36
back in episode five i think the danger
33:38
of howling people down and saying they
33:41
can’t have a different opinion is that
33:43
they’ll just not vocalize it but they’ll
33:44
still think it yeah yeah and that’s what
33:46
i felt so long as they don’t come at me
33:48
with their shitty opinions and try to
33:50
make me feel bad with their opinions i’m
33:53
happy for someone to think whatever they
33:55
like about me but as soon as they start
33:57
to attack me just like i wouldn’t attack
33:59
anybody with my opinion that whole thing
34:01
of live and let live i think is
34:02
something that we’ve really forgotten i
34:04
think the other part of that though is
34:06
that you know people say don’t polarize
34:08
anything don’t rock the boat like if
34:10
you’re in in media you know you don’t
34:11
get people offside don’t alienate your
34:14
listeners because if what was the number
34:16
in the end 56 of australians support
34:18
marriage equality well there’s still 44
34:20
that don’t and they’re still listeners
34:22
as well but
34:24
it’s so much of a bigger question of who
34:26
do you want to be and what do you want
34:27
to stand for and to get 100 of the
34:30
people all the time you’d have to agree
34:31
to some pretty terrible to whoever
34:34
is listening and it’s not necessarily in
34:36
line with your beliefs and your values
34:38
and that’s i think where the importance
34:39
of being able to to live and you know
34:42
express your own values is important too
34:44
because
34:45
why should anybody settle for something
34:47
that is less than what they expect for
34:50
themselves you know like there’s
34:52
probably a more eloquent way to put it
34:53
i’m not saying that go out and vilify
34:56
people who are different to you that’s
34:58
completely the opposite to what i’m
35:00
saying what i’m saying is that nobody if
35:02
they feel a certain way should feel that
35:04
they have to just accept somebody else’s
35:06
words or deeds and feel like they have
35:08
to keep the peace by saying nothing in
35:10
defense of themselves
35:12
because i’ve been in that situation
35:14
plenty of times myself and it’s not a
35:16
great place it’s not somewhere that you
35:18
want to be and you know there are plenty
35:20
of people with lots of different causes
35:22
going on at the moment and you know i
35:24
can specify you know like things like
35:26
these freedom marches for example that
35:28
are happening at the moment where
35:29
legitimately people are feeling upset by
35:32
actions or inaction in certain ways from
35:35
different groups like they
35:37
have been let down you know in one way
35:39
or another and
35:41
it’s a very common feeling generally
35:43
across the population but to then go to
35:46
the extreme and say
35:48
string them up or
35:50
you know whatever insert violent action
35:52
here and then polarize different groups
35:54
against each other because they’re
35:56
getting more than us or whatever it just
35:57
it’s got to stop you know because we
36:00
shouldn’t be in a position where people
36:01
are being prioritized over another
36:04
because of a difference or perceived
36:07
difference or being told that it’s like
36:09
that whole reverse racism argument which
36:12
is complete we’ve had this
36:14
conversation about quotas and things
36:16
before
36:17
until we get equity we can’t have
36:18
equality correct one of the things i
36:21
always say and i’ve said this to you
36:22
before i don’t know if i’ve said it in
36:23
the show
36:25
but it’s kind of at the basis for
36:26
reframe of mind just in general is that
36:30
i do not believe that anybody who feels
36:32
their own personal value ever wants to
36:35
take value away from anybody else and if
36:38
you feel your own self-love then you
36:41
don’t hate on anybody i think the weight
36:43
of the world being a better place is to
36:46
teach people to help them empower
36:48
themselves to love themselves to see
36:50
their value to work on their own
36:53
feelings and emotions and to claim
36:55
ownership of that because if you if you
36:57
value yourself you you don’t need to
36:59
other anybody else you you don’t need to
37:01
compete with anybody else you can
37:03
support other people i just don’t think
37:05
you can feel hate and love at the same
37:07
time so if we can teach people to find a
37:10
way to love themselves then there’s
37:12
going to be a whole lot less hate yeah
37:14
and i completely agree and also i want
37:16
to add to that you know like phrases
37:18
like that can very easily be you know
37:20
laughed at or turned into a laughing
37:22
point of oh you know you’re just being a
37:23
hippie you’re just being piece of love
37:25
and all that kind of
37:27
no like there is actually
37:29
great value in valuing yourself because
37:32
when you value yourself you don’t feel
37:35
like you have to act in certain ways to
37:37
get something and when we come from a
37:40
place of lack and we come from a place
37:41
of competition and come from a place of
37:44
they’ve got more than me then that only
37:47
breeds hatred so
37:48
if we can bring ourselves to a place
37:50
where we value ourselves and know that
37:52
you know what we are doing is ethical
37:55
and is responsible and is actually in
37:57
support of people and support of the
37:59
greater good for one of the term then
38:01
that’s the point i think we can actually
38:03
be satisfied with what we’ve got and
38:05
it’s not a case of just be grateful for
38:06
what you’ve got you know we don’t want
38:08
to kind of set up this whole it’s not
38:09
we’re not toxic positivity in this
38:11
either no no no exactly but we have to
38:13
come to a point where we do value
38:15
ourselves to the point where we know
38:17
that we are good enough that we know
38:18
that we are capable that we know that we
38:20
can learn something if we don’t know it
38:22
and to stop dumping on ourselves and
38:23
when we stop dumping on ourselves we
38:25
stop dumping on other people so in all
38:27
those years of working in commercial
38:29
radio you did
38:30
you mention that you’re related to
38:32
yourself as being heterosexual even back
38:34
when marriage equality was being
38:38
debated and that’s being generous in my
38:40
terminals yeah
38:41
did you feel at any point before that
38:43
though thinking back now you’ve got the
38:44
safety of hindsight and the safety to be
38:46
able to say actually there’s a point
38:48
where i might have been attracted to the
38:49
same sex did you ever feel moments of
38:52
that that you can remember yeah and in
38:54
hindsight now that’s
38:56
not something that i ever felt like i
38:59
could own while i was working in
39:01
commercial radio and i know that it’s
39:03
not about any individual in any way
39:05
you’ve worked because yeah i think in a
39:07
lot of places industries society there
39:11
is this underlying homophobia still that
39:13
you know we’ve seen a recent debate with
39:16
transphobia at its edge
39:18
so all of those things are still
39:20
bubbling underneath maybe this bit of
39:22
the interview with sally explains this
39:23
well
39:24
that starts from the top too like i
39:26
think of my experiences like having
39:28
worked in commercial media for 20 plus
39:31
years the the people who
39:32
the employees the people who are there
39:34
we want to make change a lot of us do we
39:37
want to
39:38
um you know we we want to tell diverse
39:40
stories but the pressure comes from
39:42
further up the chain of you know that
39:44
doesn’t relate to your average listener
39:46
your average demographic who we’re after
39:48
and there’s a lot of black and white in
39:50
that but in that same vein as well
39:52
though you know we used to have things
39:54
like diversity and inclusion studies
39:56
anonymously come out every year and
39:58
every year i’d answer well where are all
40:00
the people of color in this office
40:01
because in the whole time i’ve been
40:03
there i could only see two is that
40:05
really you know tick boxes
40:07
how many people do i publicly know that
40:10
identify
40:11
you know on the lgbtiq a plus scale
40:14
because again there was probably only
40:15
three but statistically there would have
40:18
been a lot more people myself included
40:21
as kind of a closet pansexual at the
40:23
time that didn’t feel comfortable
40:25
sharing that and therefore probably you
40:28
know because that culture from the top
40:30
is
40:30
even if it is of uh yes we’re we’ve got
40:34
to float in mardi gras so we must be
40:36
inclusive um
40:40
yeah but uh
40:41
don’t don’t speak about it don’t talk
40:43
about it
40:44
so it’s 2017 and the marriage equality
40:46
debate to use the term very generously
40:49
is is happening and there are plenty of
40:52
media identities who have same-sex
40:55
partners who even have children so what
40:57
made it different for you it wasn’t like
40:58
one person specifically ever said don’t
41:01
be gay you can’t be gay i mean it wasn’t
41:04
you’re right there were other people who
41:07
were out um quite a lot of other people
41:09
who were out something i find really
41:10
interesting is you know i make fun of
41:13
the alpha douche as being that um
41:15
cisgendered straight white middle-aged
41:17
man who’s in charge of things but you
41:19
know in the radio industry there are
41:20
actually middle-aged white men who
41:23
aren’t straight in charge of things what
41:25
perpetuates or what makes me feel like
41:27
that culture of not being gay is not
41:29
allowed when people who are you know gay
41:32
are in charge i think that someone’s
41:34
sexuality doesn’t mean that they’re an
41:38
ally to their group just because someone
41:40
is gay doesn’t mean that they protect
41:44
other members of the gay community i can
41:47
certainly certainly attest to that
41:49
different parts of the the rainbow
41:51
community as we kind of yeah
41:53
now yeah when people when there’s not a
41:55
lot of people from a particular group or
41:58
minority who succeed in something it’s
42:02
similar to what we were talking about
42:03
with suzanne that time where she said
42:06
that a lot of women who make it to
42:07
positions of power feel like they have
42:09
to be men in skirts and bust some balls
42:11
and act in that same kind of alpha
42:13
douchey way
42:14
i think that people when they’re from
42:16
marginalized groups sometimes get into a
42:18
position of power through their own
42:20
tenacity and um through the compromises
42:24
that they’ve had to make about
42:26
themselves
42:27
and their beliefs on the way to be able
42:29
to fit into that more mainstream mold
42:31
that when they do get into a position of
42:33
power they don’t use that power to
42:36
amplify or help the other people in
42:39
their community along the way they are
42:41
worried about keeping their power and so
42:44
they also other people maybe in less
42:46
overt ways or not even that they
42:49
contribute to the culture and make the
42:51
culture worse but they don’t try and
42:53
change the culture even when they get
42:55
into a position of power it’s dangerous
42:57
for them to challenge that because they
42:58
are in the minority and yes
43:01
one vocal voice is seen as
43:04
an activist and someone who’s dangerous
43:06
and someone who will change things for
43:08
the worse you know like i remember
43:10
actually when i started in darwin
43:15
sure
43:16
okay
43:18
it’s almost a double heart moment
43:19
because we’re going back not just
43:22
no not just 12 months but 12 years
43:27
exactly this is a 12 year jump not a 12
43:29
month jump so
43:31
when we first met you knew that i was
43:32
gay you know i was at the point in my
43:35
journey of life where i i was out i
43:38
wasn’t hiding it anybody who asked i
43:40
willingly told i didn’t go out you know
43:42
announcing it from the rooftops or
43:44
anything because i didn’t climb steps
43:46
that well i still don’t and that’s only
43:48
because i’m lazy it’s not a gay
43:49
stereotype gays don’t climb steps no not
43:51
at all i’m not trying to be able at
43:53
either so i um oh yeah i arrived and i
43:57
was going on shift onto the drive
43:59
program and i was you know i started to
44:00
toss around a few ideas for things like
44:02
it could be fun and
44:04
um
44:05
i know what you’re going to say and i
44:06
know it’s not going to paint me in a
44:07
very good light so i’d like to preface
44:09
it
44:11
i’d like to preface it with um
44:14
i was 26 when we had this conversation i
44:17
think yes you were 26 and also it harks
44:20
back to you know a possible unconscious
44:23
desire to be the man in the skirt or the
44:26
meat oh yes
44:29
the previous episodes that i’ve done
44:31
things in the past that would be
44:32
considered the ball busting man in the
44:34
skirt thing and i think you’re about to
44:36
discuss one of the things that i have
44:38
said you were nasty i’ve got to say that
44:41
you would you’ve never been nasty but
44:43
my criticism is polite you know and
44:45
through the conversation it became
44:47
apparent that you were telling me that
44:48
it wasn’t a good idea to be gay on air
44:51
that the station
44:52
because of its listenership because of
44:54
the target demographic didn’t have space
44:57
for a gay personality on there because
45:00
it didn’t fit the branding of the
45:01
station i took it because you know if 12
45:05
months ago i was in a place where i
45:06
wasn’t actually
45:08
saying what was important to me in
45:09
standing up for it i certainly wasn’t
45:11
going to do it 12 years ago when i was
45:13
in my first commercial radio gig so i
45:15
swallowed it
45:16
because if i was 26 year old louise you
45:18
were 36 year old andy at this point too
45:20
yeah yeah that’s right yeah exactly we
45:22
were both spring chickens back then
45:24
we were in a different place of our
45:26
journey i was exceptionally grateful to
45:28
have been given the opportunity to be on
45:30
air in such a great market on commercial
45:33
radios so what you said was correct
45:35
because we had a listening audience that
45:37
we needed to to cater to and going by
45:40
the demographic and the target of that
45:42
audience they were likely to hold
45:44
certain beliefs or certain values and
45:46
those values really only extended out as
45:49
far as we would be in the feel-good
45:51
stations so having a big gay bow
45:54
in the little brain i never said that
45:57
gabo by the way
45:59
before before the daily mail picks up an
46:01
article saying a former former radio
46:04
host called co-host gabo
46:07
yeah yeah i’m taking license here but
46:09
but the longer the sure it is you know
46:11
to have an over the top stereotypical
46:14
gay personality
46:16
which i was which i’ve never been anyway
46:18
but that’s beside the point but i that
46:21
it wouldn’t have fitted the sound of the
46:23
station overall so i’m sure this happens
46:26
with any radio announcer because they
46:28
have to think about their demographic
46:30
and who they’re actually talking to but
46:32
there are certain elements of their
46:33
personality that you just won’t hear um
46:36
because the advertisers will pull their
46:38
money if it goes against their values
46:40
that’s for sure yeah i’ve i’ve said this
46:42
to you before in a non-recorded podcast
46:44
conversation but i am sorry that i ever
46:46
did that oh i know um we will pass that
46:52
we’re in business together now honey i’m
46:54
sorry that i did a lot of things to a
46:55
lot of people that uh you know that
46:57
again 26 year old louise did because she
46:59
felt like she had to prove something
47:01
because i think when i talk about that
47:03
person um that that reaches the top and
47:06
then doesn’t support the other people
47:07
from their own community like that would
47:09
have been me then
47:10
i’m talking about what would this have
47:12
been 2008 2009 but also like how are you
47:16
supposed to have that kind of wisdom at
47:18
26 years of age well some people’s
47:20
ability some people are smart i guess
47:22
somebody okay people who didn’t repress
47:25
their sexuality for 40 years
47:27
might have yeah but without dumping on
47:29
yourself though like if the culture
47:31
itself was such that you know it didn’t
47:33
expect you to uphold that value would
47:35
you be upholding it you know like and
47:38
not coming to individuals again but if
47:40
through a whole industry this whole
47:43
sense can kind of trickle down that well
47:45
the most important thing is that we only
47:47
speak to people with this value this
47:49
value and this value and we don’t
47:51
mention this other stuff because that’s
47:52
just too hard i want to add as well that
47:55
came from a place of actually feeling
47:57
like i was trying to protect you i
47:59
didn’t want you to get attacked and i
48:01
wanted you to be successful and i had
48:04
already had several years of experience
48:07
knowing how much more difficult that
48:08
would be
48:09
if you were the gay bow um
48:12
because it’s got a limited life span
48:14
that kind of personality in that kind of
48:17
and also not wanting you to become a
48:19
stereotype and a um
48:22
like a token woman but you’re the token
48:24
gay and the only thing you can ever
48:25
comment on is reality tv and go oh my
48:28
god yes go kim go you know you know like
48:31
it’s
48:32
it doesn’t value you as a person um
48:34
correct and in 2009 as i’m now told at
48:38
2009
48:40
like forget 2022 we live in an entirely
48:44
different time now um oh yeah 2009 this
48:48
was like i think even just as the first
48:50
iphone was coming out right um yeah it
48:52
was the attitudes around in 2009
48:56
regarding the expectations of the lgbt
49:00
iqa plus community and the only gay we
49:03
saw really represented on tv was the
49:06
will and grace gay yeah it was it was
49:08
still there in my mind it wasn’t because
49:10
you know i kind of knew what went before
49:13
me people say that we we stand on on the
49:15
shoulders of giants and certainly you
49:18
know from what i’d learned when i came
49:20
out and through the people i’d met after
49:22
coming out i knew what had gone before
49:24
me as far as all of the activism and all
49:26
of the protests and all of the
49:28
hatred that had been sort of slung at my
49:30
community my community up until
49:33
well it still does still does to be
49:35
honest
49:36
like to me i didn’t have the sense of
49:37
that and actually it was a very good
49:39
thing for you to be able to be there and
49:42
protect me in that way because had i
49:44
gone on with
49:46
a sense that people will accept me for
49:49
whoever i am anyway it’s still
49:51
it that’s still not so you know people
49:54
will still try to tell me that i’m not
49:58
good enough for one reason or another
50:00
some people will still even ask me which
50:02
one’s the man in our relationship or
50:04
which one is the woman in one of the
50:05
questions i phrased to sally when we
50:08
heard it back we went oh
50:09
that sounds a bit off but but i stand by
50:12
it you know i think that in a lot of
50:13
these arguments a lot of these news
50:15
stories we hear a lot of the commentary
50:16
we hear the people who are most
50:18
self-righteous are so obsessed with what
50:20
people do in the bedroom and they are so
50:22
obsessed with what people have got
50:24
between their legs and what they do with
50:26
them it is just the most hypocritical
50:29
position that i can think of for people
50:32
to have those sorts of points of view
50:35
and then try and turn it around to say
50:37
that the other people are the deviants
50:39
when they’re just minding their own
50:40
business trying to live their life like
50:41
anybody else and to love someone their
50:45
way in a consensual way in a loving way
50:48
to be told no you’re wrong like we’re
50:50
talking very specifically about media
50:52
and we’re now talking about media in
50:53
2009 um i’m trying to get across that
50:57
this is something that is happening from
50:58
our background it may not be about an
51:01
industry that everybody can relate to
51:03
but this is happening in so many
51:06
industries yeah yeah there is that
51:09
covert feeling that it’s not okay to be
51:11
you in whatever way you know whether
51:13
that’s
51:14
sexuality whether it’s culture whether
51:16
it’s
51:17
disability
51:18
you know if there is a sense that you
51:20
cannot be your whole self in whatever
51:23
way that means then
51:25
people don’t feel comfortable
51:27
challenging that status quo in an
51:29
environment where they are already a
51:31
minority figure there was no way that i
51:33
was going to say to my boss because you
51:36
were my boss and you had a boss above
51:38
you so i wasn’t certainly wasn’t going
51:39
to say it to them
51:41
but i was not going to walk in there and
51:42
say well look i’m gay just deal with it
51:44
i’m going to say what i like because
51:46
you know i came in accepting certain
51:47
rules as well i came into a new job and
51:50
i was learning the ropes in the new
51:51
industry for me and i wanted to do the
51:54
very best i could and i had to respect
51:55
certain rules because really you know
51:58
and this also comes back to what would i
52:00
know but realistically what did i know
52:02
at that point about commercial radio and
52:04
how it worked and how audiences and
52:06
branding and marketing around all those
52:08
sorts of things happened so
52:10
of course i was going to toe the line of
52:11
course i wasn’t going to be
52:14
anything larger than what was required
52:17
and that’s my choice
52:18
that was my choice
52:20
i could have gone no that and moved
52:22
back to sydney but i didn’t and we make
52:24
these choices to compromise ourselves
52:25
because
52:26
we care i think sometimes we care so
52:28
much more about the thing that we’re
52:30
doing and what that means to us than
52:32
about the our own values
52:34
um and that’s something we have to kind
52:36
of come to ourselves another aside i
52:40
once had a intern lovely person and they
52:43
really really really wanted to get into
52:46
radio and then they did i gave them a
52:48
great reference and i gave them as much
52:50
experience as i could give them they
52:52
ended up getting a job in regional radio
52:54
and they called me up crying because
52:57
their probation area period wasn’t
52:58
extended so they weren’t fired but it
53:01
was because unlike you they didn’t toe
53:03
the line and they were openly gay yeah
53:06
they didn’t fit the sound of the station
53:09
yeah which is a real shitty thing you
53:12
know
53:12
like i i don’t know like i’ve got a very
53:15
different kind of perspective on it now
53:17
and
53:18
any advertiser that came to me and said
53:20
well we’re gonna pull our dollars from
53:22
you because you are gay or whatever i
53:24
would say well take your money i
53:26
don’t care i don’t want it because
53:27
you’re not important to me and by the
53:28
way neither is your products there are
53:30
plenty of others out there that i can
53:31
get which are different because i don’t
53:33
need your bigotry behind your dollars
53:36
and i suppose this conversation about
53:38
culture isn’t just about gayness i at
53:41
some point found myself in these jobs
53:43
protecting people
53:45
for expressing their own opinions when
53:47
you you say that thing about you know
53:49
i’ll take my advertising dollars
53:50
elsewhere well
53:51
i i had to many times stand up and say
53:54
no that like advertising dollars doesn’t
53:57
um control editorial content there have
54:00
been things in the past where you know
54:02
i’ve ended up in arguments with people
54:04
um
54:05
higher than myself because
54:08
advertisers haven’t necessarily been
54:10
happy that let’s say a hypothetical
54:13
scandal happened and it involved a large
54:16
company
54:17
not doing the right thing and then it
54:20
was reported on in the news it was also
54:23
discussed by the hosts of say you know
54:25
one of the shows i i had was asked
54:28
sometimes to bury stories don’t run
54:30
those stories because
54:33
they’re a client i can specifically
54:35
remember having that for some other
54:38
content makers who had made some
54:40
comments not untruthful not defamatory
54:43
nothing like that but had made some
54:44
personal comments about what they
54:46
thought of a situation that was topical
54:48
but because it was about an advertiser
54:50
the advertiser wanted an apology they
54:52
want to basically say we’re going to
54:54
pull our money if you don’t put us in a
54:56
positive light we will do whatever the
54:58
hell we like and
55:00
expect you not to pass negative comments
55:02
about it there’s a couple more stories i
55:04
want to add before we move on to the
55:05
next part of this andy if that’s okay
55:07
with you
55:08
these are stories aimed at
55:10
a generalization of what media culture
55:13
is like slash was like i don’t know
55:15
haven’t been in it for two years i can
55:17
only go by my past experience and how
55:19
this culture is probably similar in and
55:22
most likely similar in other industries
55:24
so one x amount of years prior before
55:27
the marriage equality survey i had a
55:30
heated debate with somebody who was in
55:32
charge about marriage equality they were
55:35
adamant that marriage should only be
55:38
between a man and a woman and anything
55:40
else was
55:41
disgusting and i was very heated in my
55:44
response to that and advocating for
55:47
equality it was not a fun argument and
55:49
it completely changed the way i looked
55:50
at that person because up until that
55:52
point i you know i really respected them
55:53
but so fast forward to 2017 that same
55:57
person popped on their social media and
55:59
said
56:00
i support marriage equality and if you
56:02
don’t then get the off my page and
56:06
what yeah well obviously someone had a
56:08
change of heart over that period and
56:10
it’s great they had a change of heart
56:11
but i would have loved to have heard the
56:13
story about how you went from arguing
56:14
with me about same sex marriage being a
56:16
sin to get the off my page because
56:18
that story of growth would have been
56:20
much more convincing to people who
56:22
haven’t yet come around that than just
56:24
off my page
56:25
um yeah yeah completely especially
56:28
saying that was a real formative thing
56:29
for me x amount of years prior when they
56:32
were someone who was in charge of a lot
56:35
of things and they had such strong views
56:37
against homosexuality but you know what
56:40
maybe in some ways you were the catalyst
56:42
for them to start thinking about that
56:44
because
56:45
you know i think about some of the
56:46
conversations i have even recently with
56:48
some people about different things and i
56:50
never go in wanting to convince somebody
56:52
to change their minds necessarily you
56:54
know i’ll try and give them my
56:56
perspective and why i think a certain
56:57
way and i’m always open to changing my
56:59
mind as well but i i guess when i feel
57:02
passionately about something and i still
57:04
can’t convince someone of my perspective
57:07
then
57:08
there comes a point which i’m sure you
57:10
did as well there’s a point where you
57:11
have to walk away yeah it’s exasperating
57:15
yeah but perhaps that point that you’ve
57:17
made causes them to actually when things
57:19
have cooled down to think okay well
57:21
obviously they’re being passionate about
57:23
this for a reason maybe there’s
57:25
something i can read to find out why
57:27
it’s like when we were talking to
57:28
jacinta carboon about the impact of
57:30
inequality in the workplace for women
57:32
and in society in the broader scale for
57:35
women
57:36
and how she had to take that person on a
57:39
journey it was a man we can say it was a
57:40
man because she said it was a man she
57:41
had to take one of her male colleagues
57:43
on a journey and say okay so
57:46
are you okay with
57:48
your daughter earning half as much or
57:50
you know a percentage of what female
57:52
counterpart earns up with the same
57:54
qualifications or we shouldn’t have to
57:56
ask jenny if it’s okay though like no we
57:59
shouldn’t have to check with jenny first
58:01
honestly no we shouldn’t by any means
58:03
not by a long shot sometimes we have to
58:05
use whatever means we can know to wake
58:07
people up to the fact that what they’re
58:09
saying isn’t necessarily fully thought
58:11
out so the conversation we had with
58:13
sally last episode is so important to me
58:16
because sally’s a trans woman and not
58:18
because she’s a trans woman but because
58:20
she’s talking about diversity inclusion
58:22
now still these stories that we’re
58:24
sharing uh you know from a long time ago
58:27
um
58:28
it’s it’s still going on could you
58:29
imagine with all of this stuff
58:32
we’ve been talking about here that
58:33
happened in 2009 for us and
58:36
don’t be gay in 2009 i could have never
58:39
employed a trans person could you
58:41
imagine i did employ a trans person
58:44
after i left
58:45
darwin in the position i was in and
58:48
there’s really not much to say about
58:50
that because they’re a person
58:52
they’re a person and they did a great
58:54
job and they brought amazing skills to
58:57
the job that i employed them for but
58:58
geez did i see some bigotry around the
59:01
ranks even to the point of one of the
59:04
people
59:05
that actually
59:06
also worked for
59:08
the station dead naming that person
59:11
because they’d known them before they
59:13
transitioned and
59:15
yeah
59:16
you know like that’s 12 years ago now um
59:20
it still happens though i’m not just
59:21
talking about trans issues or gay issues
59:25
racism yeah you know yeah there are some
59:27
awful things being said about aboriginal
59:30
and torres strait islander people there
59:32
are terrible things about migrants or
59:35
whatever label we want to kind of bring
59:37
down to someone like a refugee who’s
59:39
been locked up for nine years there’s
59:41
all sorts of stuff going on
59:43
still and i wonder if we will ever wake
59:46
up whether we’ll ever reach that kind of
59:49
you know let the sunshine in moment that
59:51
they had in the 60s apparently
59:54
obviously i thought well that looks good
59:55
and i came back down into this lifetime
59:57
and
59:58
60:01
it was a lie it was a lie
60:03
[Laughter]
60:05
26 year old louise i think became maybe
60:08
28 year old louise
60:10
or 29 year old louise however old she
60:12
was um and i could not do that anymore i
60:16
hadn’t until we started our own business
60:18
and i suppose it’s easy to call
60:20
ourselves leaders when there’s only two
60:22
of us and our studio audience of felines
60:25
and we keep leading each other astray
60:26
but yeah
60:28
but you know what that last the last
60:31
time that i was a manager i couldn’t do
60:34
it anymore because i
60:37
felt like i had to protect people so
60:39
much from the culture not just the lgbt
60:43
qia plus community um no women even
60:46
people of a certain age you know they
60:48
they get bullied by other groups so
60:51
there’s all sorts of
60:53
discrimination that goes on definitely
60:55
some ageism and also the inequity of
60:58
people further up making a
61:01
lot of money a lot a lot of money and
61:04
making a lot of money off your creative
61:06
talent and then telling you that they
61:08
can’t pass that on to you and not only
61:10
can they not pass that on to you but
61:12
you’re going to get paid minimum wage
61:15
and also you need to work all those
61:17
hours for free because if you don’t do
61:20
it then somebody else will because
61:21
everybody wants this job
61:23
everybody wants and there’s not
61:25
enough opportunities so we’re going to
61:27
take your creativity and your pattern
61:29
and get everything out of that we can
61:32
for 38 grand a year you want to work 38
61:34
grand a year and work 15 hour days have
61:36
i got the job for you
61:38
that’s so glamorous you’re gonna love it
61:41
it speaks to the culture of these
61:43
industries doesn’t it because and not
61:45
just media this is not just media this
61:47
is across other industries look at how
61:50
at the moment even with
61:52
nurses you know how you’ve got
61:54
governments coming out and saying oh yes
61:56
we really appreciate all the nurses and
61:58
all they’ve done for us especially over
61:59
the last two years
62:01
pay them yeah clapping doesn’t
62:03
help a payroll i can stand in my
62:06
driveway for hours clapping all
62:08
i’m going to get is sore hands and need
62:10
a nurse pay them
62:11
put some people through training and
62:13
start putting more resources into health
62:15
care give them money you know
62:17
what clap as you give them the pay rise
62:19
well done here’s an extra you know 20
62:21
grand and then also do it for some
62:23
teachers as well yeah yeah while
62:25
you’re at it let’s make a list let’s
62:28
let’s make a list of all the people in
62:29
society who are over and it’s
62:31
everybody except the one percent in
62:33
power anyway the patriarchy
62:37
you said we weren’t going to say
62:38
the patriarchy every episode look you
62:40
know but we get ourselves to these
62:42
little states don’t we i’m in a tizzy
62:44
i’m in a tizzy and i’m not even halfway
62:46
through our run sheet here
62:48
i know i want to bring it back i just
62:50
know i want to bring it back to so that
62:52
that time where i was your boss was the
62:54
last time that i was somebody’s direct
62:56
boss like that because i left that job
62:59
feeling like i couldn’t i didn’t want to
63:01
be in charge of anyone anymore because i
63:03
was disappointing people that were below
63:05
me who i couldn’t look after and i felt
63:08
like i
63:08
i really wanted to look after them
63:10
because i saw me in them and i saw how
63:12
much they cared and i saw their passion
63:15
for what they were doing
63:17
um
63:18
but also further up the chain i saw the
63:20
exploitation of an industry and how
63:23
people would work so hard
63:26
to do what they love doing to be
63:29
rewarded in pittance
63:33
to have to hide themselves to have to
63:36
tone themselves down to be a brand for
63:40
somebody instead of their own unique
63:42
person um and that that pressure of
63:45
being in the middle was kind of you
63:48
know it is kind of little
63:50
management is no place for the
63:51
faint-hearted because you’re
63:53
disappointing people all over the place
63:55
above you below you beside you i’ve
63:57
tried to advocate up in my life as much
63:59
as i can
64:01
but there’s only so far you can advocate
64:04
up
64:05
well yeah
64:07
you know it clearly this is something
64:08
that that really sort of touches your
64:10
heart as well and
64:13
it’s touched mind and yeah i speak about
64:15
it without being able to be affected by
64:17
it probably because my response to it is
64:19
anxiety you know like when i feel like i
64:22
can’t be all that i need to be or feel
64:25
that i need to be for everybody that is
64:27
in my team or everybody
64:29
that i’m trying to impress with my
64:32
team’s performance then i get incredibly
64:34
anxious
64:35
and that’s something that i don’t want
64:37
you know that’s something that leads to
64:38
burnout it it does lead to burnout
64:42
and it did lead to burnout um for me a
64:46
lot of times actually i i wonder now if
64:49
some of the episodes i had called
64:51
depressive episodes of burnout
64:54
look you know and i think you know
64:56
just as much as anybody else in in
64:58
whatever they’re doing
65:00
sometimes we become a product of the
65:02
industry that we’re in you know but
65:04
you’ve found a way out of that yeah
65:07
at that point all that time ago where i
65:09
decided i wasn’t going to be a manager
65:11
anymore
65:12
i thought
65:14
i really want to be a radio announcer
65:16
and create and i love
65:19
the radio
65:21
um and
65:22
if i can just do it for myself
65:25
and not have to be in charge of anybody
65:27
then i can weather that on my own do you
65:30
know what i mean i can
65:32
because when i left darwin i
65:35
didn’t have another job lined up and i
65:37
just could not do it anymore and i
65:40
actually thought at that time
65:41
is this it is this where
65:44
there’s no more career for me because i
65:46
felt that at that time is this the end
65:48
of my radio career because you don’t
65:51
leave a job in radio without having
65:52
another one lined up because anyone will
65:54
tell you very quickly that you shouldn’t
65:55
even go on holidays because when you
65:57
come back someone’s going to take your
65:59
job which
66:00
as we discussed in a previous episode
66:02
they did
66:03
so
66:06
that happened um
66:08
and and so at that point i thought we
66:10
know
66:10
that might be the end of that am i okay
66:12
with that and
66:14
i wasn’t but i did it because i could
66:17
couldn’t do the alternative um and in
66:20
that case i didn’t burn any bridges or
66:22
explode them on the way out so it just
66:24
still collected the kerosene honey
66:26
[Laughter]
66:28
i was still building up the kerosene
66:31
so i you know it wasn’t that long before
66:33
i had people calling me up asking me if
66:35
i’d come work for them so i think
66:38
i was un unemployed at that stage for
66:41
like it was three months and i really
66:42
ended up just taking a holiday in
66:44
between jobs is what it kind of became
66:46
but i did decide that continuing in the
66:48
industry i wouldn’t be a manager because
66:52
of those things and if i just
66:54
i can just put all my resources into
66:58
making me the best version of me
67:00
so that i can use my power and influence
67:04
to help other people and in the best way
67:07
that i can do it and that will be enough
67:09
and i
67:10
i know the culture of what i’m in and i
67:14
understand what they’re like and if i
67:16
can just
67:17
play by enough rules
67:19
that i can be successful and get to the
67:22
top maybe i can create change or
67:25
find a way to just
67:27
deal with it because also this is the
67:29
only thing that i thought i wanted to do
67:31
at that point
67:33
and i had
67:34
if we go back to episode three tied my
67:37
entire identity to being a radio person
67:42
it was my salvation for depression for
67:45
you know
67:45
those suicidal ideations on the floor of
67:48
the shower
67:49
so
67:51
i don’t know what i’m getting at anymore
67:54
well i think you know what what’s
67:55
essentially happened is that
67:57
for one
67:59
of a better term you were kind of beaten
68:01
by a system you know like you
68:04
you
68:05
did your very best to bring
68:07
the best of yourself into the role that
68:09
you got
68:10
yet you still had those other
68:12
expectations to meet which went against
68:14
your values yeah
68:16
and so
68:18
at that point when you stepped out of
68:19
that you were saying essentially look
68:23
it’s a big bit of my identity
68:24
but jesus christ this doesn’t actually
68:26
make me happy in the slightest because
68:29
it’s not actually aligning with anything
68:31
that’s important to me or maybe not
68:32
that’s probably a little bit dramatic
68:34
because i’m a gay boy but but you know
68:36
it’s not aligning completely with my
68:38
values so i need to get out it’s not
68:41
aligning enough and if it’s not aligning
68:43
enough and someone else won’t come to
68:45
the party of helping it align
68:49
then what else is there yeah which
68:53
clearly i’m traumatized
68:55
yeah and we’ll say get some perspective
68:58
until we talk about these things and we
68:59
wouldn’t have so much drama because this
69:02
is
69:03
some drama here ready
69:05
but this is
69:06
[Laughter]
69:08
well that would be talking positivity
69:10
saying that there we go you know that’ll
69:12
be toxic positivity saying that because
69:14
toxic positivity says it’s not okay to
69:16
get upset about anything yeah but you
69:18
know the the great loss for
69:21
the industry that you left is that they
69:24
had a leader in place that would have
69:26
been able to bring in a really beautiful
69:30
leadership style into an industry and
69:32
show people how to lead well and to lead
69:35
differently
69:38
i know but i’m upset about it now
69:41
oh my god
69:43
um
69:45
maybe i’ll get my together while we
69:46
listen to this bit from suzanne mercier
69:48
then
69:49
who helped us realise
69:51
that as leaders and managers we learn
69:53
from the style of those which we’ve
69:55
worked under
69:56
when i was about 17 and i was working in
69:59
an apartment store and there was the
70:01
after sales office and because of the
70:03
times that it was in the 80s there was
70:05
all women that worked in that office and
70:07
the woman who was in charge was someone
70:09
who was renowned for striking fear into
70:11
everybody and i was petrified her as
70:13
well because of everybody else’s opinion
70:14
and then she must have picked up on it
70:16
because she turned to me and said you’re
70:17
scared of me aren’t you wow and i looked
70:19
her in the eye i said no i’m not scared
70:21
of you and then continue with the
70:22
conversation and then she just softened
70:24
completely
70:25
so it seemed like that there was a wall
70:27
that she was putting up there because
70:29
she felt that she had to she was seen
70:30
for who she really was that she couldn’t
70:32
be an effective manager but she was the
70:34
loveliest person but nobody could see
70:36
past her her style of management because
70:39
that seemed to be what she felt she
70:41
needed to do well and often we learn our
70:43
style of management from the previous
70:44
manager that we worked with so if her
70:46
style of management was learned from a
70:48
male manager then that’s entirely you
70:51
know she thought she had to do that so
70:53
um yeah i can understand that and and
70:55
how perceptive of her that she
70:56
recognized it and changed what she was
70:58
doing with me not with anybody else
71:02
i cracked her oh there you go did anyone
71:05
else get the benefit of it possibly i
71:08
think we softened some things along the
71:09
way
71:10
well i think i think also people get
71:11
into you know management and leadership
71:13
roles and it takes them a while to find
71:16
their feet because that’s a whole new
71:17
game for them they’re in uncertain
71:18
territory and and often the way that we
71:21
handle uncertainty is to go into control
71:24
and to reduce our vulnerability we you
71:26
know we adapt or adopt certain behaviors
71:28
and and those sorts of things and they
71:30
certainly aren’t at least in that space
71:32
um you know particularly good for people
71:34
that are sort of in the in the role or
71:37
at the level that you were before or at
71:38
the level below you so yeah it’s an
71:40
interesting it’s just such a complex
71:42
area isn’t it i find it interesting that
71:44
people think that women are more
71:45
aggressive when they get to the top
71:47
because from my own experience i’ve had
71:50
quite a few
71:51
female managers and leaders and they
71:54
have by far been the best leaders that
71:55
i’ve had in my career well thank you
71:57
andy
72:00
i love that
72:01
[Laughter]
72:04
there’s that lovely expression that if
72:06
you if this miracle occurs within five
72:08
kilometers claim it
72:12
but i’ve always found that that women
72:14
actually bring a lot more of themselves
72:17
i tend to find leadership more natural
72:19
coming from women because they connect
72:21
more with people in my experience
72:23
whereas men tend to connect more with
72:26
the task yes well that that is in
72:28
general true i think that um i think
72:31
that there are a lot of men who are
72:33
starting to embrace the more feminine
72:35
side of leadership which is much more
72:37
concerned about people so there’s a lot
72:39
of good men out there wanting to find
72:40
that balance
72:42
but yeah i think that
72:43
there’s the old double standard that
72:45
what’s seen as assertive in a guy is
72:47
seen as aggressive in a woman and that’s
72:49
society if you ask women many of the
72:51
women have the same response so she’s
72:53
aggressive um but in actual fact she’s
72:55
just doing something that a guy would do
72:56
and it’s just seen very differently so
72:58
yeah i think we still got a lot of
72:59
unconscious bias to sort out no question
73:02
one of my earliest managing jobs because
73:04
i started managing people when i was 23
73:06
or so in the interview the
73:09
alpha douche that was the interviewer
73:12
specifically told me that if he gives
73:14
this job to a woman he doesn’t want to
73:16
pioneer i don’t want you to go out and
73:18
pioneer anything you know i want to give
73:20
this to somebody who’ll do the job right
73:22
and not make this all about being a
73:23
woman right further to that in roles
73:26
where i’ve been managing large teams of
73:28
people especially where people have been
73:30
older than me and with a lot of
73:31
experience i mean i think that imposter
73:34
syndrome has certainly crept in there
73:36
um because you know they’re more
73:37
experienced but that doesn’t necessarily
73:39
mean that they you know have more
73:41
creativity or the right perspective for
73:44
the job
73:45
but i i would say that as a 23 year old
73:48
doing that different than an almost 40
73:50
year old without this perspective
73:52
i felt like i had to mold myself to be
73:54
more of i suppose more of that masculine
73:57
energy in you know take that on so as
74:00
much as i want to take andy’s compliment
74:01
he was probably talking about somebody
74:03
else because
74:05
absolutely you know that
74:06
i’m a bit of a ball buster
74:10
because i think that in that i had to
74:12
harden myself
74:14
to compete on that level and i think
74:17
that was you know one of the things this
74:19
is turning into my therapy session but
74:21
one of the things that turned me away
74:23
from being a manager of a large group is
74:25
kind of
74:26
you know having those two masters having
74:27
all those people underneath you who you
74:29
as uh me as a woman wanted to lift up
74:32
and do the best for but then having
74:34
those masters above that saw them as
74:36
numbers on a spreadsheet
74:37
finding that balance i don’t think
74:39
there’s a question i think i’m just
74:41
venting that’s great you’re absolutely
74:42
right and um i think that what’s really
74:45
powerful of what about what you’ve just
74:46
said is that it it represents that there
74:49
are so many different styles of feminine
74:50
leadership there’s not one
74:52
and and you have to actually meet people
74:54
where they are to change the the um the
74:56
story anyway so that you can you know
74:59
share with them another way to do things
75:01
so i think that if you if you were to do
75:03
that you probably wouldn’t have got
75:04
ahead and i i think back on my career
75:07
and i don’t think that i had that
75:09
bolshee sort of approach and i i would
75:11
actually not put myself out there in
75:12
fact you know when i was in my early
75:14
days of running my own business i sort
75:16
of hoped that i’d planted the seeds and
75:17
they were all going to come to me so it
75:18
took me ages to get that i have to
75:20
actually put myself out there it wasn’t
75:22
comfortable at all so i think that
75:24
people who work inside the corporate
75:25
environment they have to be stronger
75:27
they have to actually you know be able
75:29
to stand up and and give an opinion and
75:32
you know play the game to some degree so
75:34
it doesn’t suit everybody you know it’s
75:36
just you’ve got to find your way in and
75:38
place to be a leader
75:40
i suppose the thing is we don’t want to
75:42
play by those rules anymore because look
75:43
what happens to us
75:45
well i mean to us to me personally if i
75:48
play by those rules because it ends up
75:51
with me burning out
75:53
and
75:54
getting depressed and having anxiety
75:57
attacks and feeling like i’m
75:59
compromising every inch of myself
76:02
to play in somebody else’s game who i
76:05
will never win and i can only shift the
76:08
needle ever so incrementally before
76:10
somebody else knocks the needle back
76:12
again yeah so we have a chance with what
76:15
we’re doing to step out of that mold and
76:17
create something for ourselves with our
76:20
rules our way
76:22
so what actually are those rules well
76:24
i’m glad you asked i don’t know either
76:26
you know and
76:28
this is the point of the story this is
76:30
you know harp time happening over 12
76:32
months ago
76:35
[Applause]
76:37
harking back to even i don’t know how
76:39
far we are into this episode at the
76:41
moment but right at the beginning with
76:43
our sketch
76:44
12 months ago i started saying something
76:47
to the effect of you know we don’t live
76:49
in a vacuum yes because it became very
76:51
clear to me at that point that you know
76:53
as much as we try to sanitize our
76:55
environments
76:56
you know as much as we build our echo
76:58
chambers to suit our own beliefs and our
77:00
values we’d line our little castles with
77:02
people who agree with us um sooner or
77:05
later we need to interact with the
77:06
outside world you know and on top of
77:08
that
77:09
different events that we face can also
77:11
trigger the same old feelings and
77:13
patterns of behavior how many times did
77:15
i say to you of a morning i’ve done some
77:16
journaling this morning
77:20
because something had come up that i
77:22
thought about with relation to my family
77:24
and i just i got it out but
77:26
you know as much as i tried to put on
77:28
that toxic positivity brave face and
77:30
said no all right yeah no i’m good i’m
77:31
like yeah yeah now time is past and
77:33
water under the bridge and blah blah
77:34
blah no no no
77:36
because
77:37
it’s not linear it’s cyclical it’s not
77:39
even cyclical it’s it’s i don’t know
77:41
what it is it’s it’s almost like that
77:43
multiverse kind of theory you can get
77:46
hit by it anywhere at any time
77:48
it’s a multiverse of trauma yeah exactly
77:51
a bit like grief you know like because
77:54
you know let’s not forget that during
77:55
that patch of time as well i was really
77:57
still
77:58
you know in early stages of grief around
78:01
losing my dad it was year in but still
78:04
grief has got no time no it’s great it
78:06
doesn’t expire it doesn’t start within a
78:08
certain time it doesn’t end within a
78:10
certain time in fact you know i
78:14
i still think about my mum who i lost
78:17
you know nine months after moving to
78:18
darwin and get emotional when i think
78:21
about her because i miss her
78:23
you know and i miss my dad and i miss
78:26
all of these people that
78:27
that were important to me when i was
78:29
growing up and are still important to me
78:31
but they’re not with me anymore yeah so
78:34
it’s not
78:35
something that just leaves us you know
78:37
seven-year-old me asked my grandmother
78:40
you know when are things going to get
78:41
back to normal this is after she’d lost
78:42
her daughter my auntie well nothing’s
78:44
going to get back to normal and
78:45
everyone’s going to be happy again and
78:47
her reaction was to my mum how do you
78:49
get this kid out of here he’s stupid or
78:51
whatever i didn’t know anything about
78:53
grief i didn’t know anything about death
78:55
i didn’t all i knew was that before i
78:57
was born my grandfather had died and
78:59
they all seemed pretty happy not that he
79:01
died but they all seemed to be getting
79:03
on life pretty well all i wanted to know
79:05
at that point was when things were going
79:06
to return to some sense of normality
79:08
much like people are saying now after
79:10
the pandemic when are we going to get
79:12
back to normal well things have changed
79:16
life changes and we need to be able to
79:18
adapt
79:19
grief is a part of that and in a lot of
79:21
ways
79:23
we don’t live in a vacuum we don’t live
79:24
in a vacuum we when we come to work we
79:27
bring all of those other things with us
79:29
oh bring your whole self to work like
79:31
the authenticity catchphrase says but
79:34
jeez if you think you you can show it if
79:36
you think you can actually say something
79:38
about it bring it by all means but don’t
79:40
do anything with it could you imagine if
79:41
um if we brought our whole selves to
79:43
work and instead of
79:45
us unleashing our trauma on this podcast
79:47
this is what we put on the radio
79:50
well i’ll tell you what i would make
79:51
some interesting headlines and we’ll
79:53
probably get like a good good
79:54
listenership of course you know we know
79:56
that people do like a bit of a salacious
79:58
conversation
79:59
salacious
80:00
i can’t imagine it would have gone down
80:02
with management maybe we can send that
80:04
out in the press release for this one
80:05
see if someone picks it up listen to two
80:07
former radio hosts cry about their life
80:12
all this discussion about work um not
80:15
our work now uh someone else’s work but
80:16
i think this is probably a really good
80:18
time to introduce jane madden board
80:20
member for the black dog institute and
80:21
chair for the fred hollows foundation
80:23
and with a public service career of at
80:26
least 30 years where she’s been in some
80:28
of the most senior levels of government
80:30
she knows a lot about mental health in
80:32
the workplace so how has the
80:34
conversation about mental health changed
80:36
in that time
80:37
i had a career in government for over 30
80:40
years before now working as a board
80:43
director and
80:44
also running my own advisory firm and
80:47
the conversations that we’re having in
80:49
mental health and as i said right across
80:50
different sectors are very different
80:52
than what they were five or ten years
80:54
ago i’ve had the opportunity of serving
80:56
on the black dog institute board for
80:58
almost seven years now and during that
81:00
time i think we’ve seen a really
81:02
increased awareness across workplaces
81:05
academic and
81:07
other educational institutions and even
81:10
the home
81:11
that um you know mental health can
81:13
affect everybody and in fact you know i
81:16
think the current uh levels are that you
81:18
know one in five australians will
81:20
experience some mental illness at some
81:22
point in their life so that it touches
81:24
each and every one of us and of course
81:27
without spending a large part of our
81:28
lives in the workplace it’s only natural
81:31
that there will be mental illness uh in
81:33
the workplace people do need to think
81:35
about their mental health uh both
81:37
amongst your colleagues amongst your
81:39
staff and especially if you’re a leader
81:41
so i do think that there’s been
81:43
increased awareness on the importance of
81:46
talking about mental health just as we
81:48
also talk about physical health and
81:50
occupational health and safety and the
81:53
conversations have i think fortunately
81:55
become less stigmatized than they used
81:58
to be do you think when it comes to
82:00
modern workplace leadership that part of
82:02
that role is also being a counsellor to
82:04
staff to some extent but i think there
82:07
also needs to be a recognition that a
82:10
mental illness is not something that can
82:13
be at times quickly fixed by counseling
82:16
staff you know you know sometimes i’ve
82:18
seen it in a brisk way like you know get
82:20
over it you know you’re just feeling
82:21
down get out of it
82:23
you know there will be times where yes
82:26
support in the workplace is necessary
82:28
but there will be times also where you
82:30
do need to you know seek professional
82:32
help because with appropriate treatment
82:34
it’s really important to know
82:36
that many people can and do recover from
82:40
mental health illness
82:42
it almost feels like that there needed
82:43
to be some kind of flash point to happen
82:45
for businesses to really take mental
82:47
health seriously and this is something
82:49
that our other guest today annie harvey
82:51
who is a patent interrupter for
82:53
workplaces has noticed across time as
82:55
well
82:56
it’s taken
82:57
a pandemic for companies to put
82:59
well-being mental health and well-being
83:01
at the top of their list to look after
83:04
employees and sometimes people just say
83:06
everything’s getting really serious can
83:08
we just have a bit of joy and can you do
83:10
a laughter session for us which is great
83:13
so annie works with adults and teens to
83:15
help them maximize well-being and
83:16
resilience and she shows people not only
83:19
how to be still just for a few moments
83:21
but also shares her own strategies to
83:23
prevent burnout she works as a keynote
83:25
speaker and runs workshops training in
83:26
one-to-one mentoring and coaching and
83:28
she refers to herself as a patent
83:30
interrupter so what does that mean
83:33
a stint last week for literally 10
83:34
minutes at a conference and there’d been
83:36
a lot of tears through some triggering
83:38
talks and quite often i’m kind of
83:40
brought on as a pattern interrupt at
83:42
conferences after
83:44
things that you know talks that might
83:46
upset people and i’m important to lift
83:48
the mood and still people were crying
83:51
but it was different kinds of tears it
83:53
was quite fascinating to watch room that
83:54
was within three or four minutes what do
83:56
you mean patent interrupt what’s um how
83:58
would you do
83:58
an interrupt so yeah sometimes i’ve just
84:01
been called that so it’s you know when
84:03
you when you are triggered an audience
84:05
is triggered or anyone is triggered by
84:07
something they’ve heard in a talk or on
84:09
the news or whatever
84:11
and i come in and i’m the patent
84:12
interrupter
84:14
to release that laughter really quickly
84:16
and that interrupts your stress response
84:18
and turns turns off your fight or flight
84:20
and turns on your
84:22
um relaxation response really
84:25
so it’s a yeah a bit of a circuit
84:26
breaker i guess you could call it i like
84:28
the idea of you like that’s your
84:30
official job title pattern interrupter
84:32
get it printed on a t-shirt it’s on a
84:34
hat all sorts of weird titles in this
84:36
job yeah annie the activator last week
84:40
so we’ve been talking a little bit about
84:41
burnout earlier in this episode and you
84:44
know we’ve all known someone if not
84:46
ourselves who has either burnt out or
84:48
got very close to that feeling of
84:49
burnout and i feel a lot like the onus
84:51
is often put onto employees for
84:53
self-care but it’s also up to employers
84:55
to provide an environment in which
84:57
burnout doesn’t take hold in the first
84:58
place so at this point we were curious
85:00
to know if jane madden had noticed any
85:02
changes in employer attitude to how
85:04
staff are treated in the workplace
85:06
have you seen much in the way of
85:08
workplaces and employers realizing that
85:11
sometimes their treatment of staff leads
85:13
to poor mental health oh this is a
85:15
tricky area yes there have been some
85:19
recognition of that and the use of
85:22
services like eap both in the public and
85:24
private sector are there so that people
85:27
who may be suffering from mental health
85:29
or need
85:30
you know a neutral or third party to
85:34
talk to
85:35
um can have the right conversations and
85:37
get the right sort of tools if you like
85:39
to manage their mental health and to
85:41
also sort of push back and if necessary
85:44
make legitimate complaints where there
85:46
is really egregious behavior uh
85:48
happening it’s not true to think that
85:51
people with a mental health issue or
85:53
illness can just pull themselves out of
85:55
it and certainly um in some workplaces
85:58
that notion of keeping a stiff upper lip
86:00
and never complaining i think affects
86:03
some people’s
86:04
mental health adversely and it’s good
86:06
that we are realizing you know the fact
86:09
and and fiction of some of these uh
86:13
myths i have noticed recently in some of
86:15
the workplaces that i’ve been in there’s
86:16
been a real shift around the approach to
86:19
what we used to call a sikhi to the
86:21
point where some leaders and managers
86:23
would say themselves that they sometimes
86:25
need a mental health day i wonder if
86:28
this kind of attitude has actually been
86:30
instrumental in helping us to reduce the
86:33
incidence of unplanned leave look um i
86:37
think that’s right andy i think a really
86:39
important thing to keep in mind is you
86:41
know majority of mental illness in the
86:42
workplace is treatable and in some cases
86:45
it is preventable so you know if you’ve
86:48
been really pushing the boat out on
86:51
heavy heavy workload um and you’re
86:53
feeling you know exhausted maybe a bit
86:55
fragile it’s much better to take that
86:58
mental health day than to have a need
87:01
later on you know take three or four
87:03
sick days each month for untreated
87:05
depression or nervous anxiety or nervous
87:08
exhaustion and i think having that
87:10
environment where you are you know
87:12
monitoring your own mental health but
87:14
also you have managers in a workplace
87:16
that’s supportive of people you know
87:18
taking the time as they need and perhaps
87:21
are amenable to people taking you know
87:23
that mental health day as you say it’s a
87:25
good thing and actually the company the
87:27
employer will benefit in the longer term
87:29
because you know it’s an old-fashioned
87:31
saying but there is that stitch in time
87:33
saves nine and it actually i think can
87:36
be relatable to giving ourselves you
87:38
know that sick day that rest day
87:40
permission to have down time uh
87:42
especially if you’ve been working hard
87:44
or you have other factors
87:46
responsibilities in your lives that are
87:49
really causing you a lot of pressure and
87:50
anxiety when it’s come to me leaving
87:52
workplaces it’s never been about the
87:54
money it’s been about the value that i
87:56
feel like um i have as a person if i
88:00
haven’t felt valued then or if i’ve seen
88:03
other people that i feel are treated um
88:05
differently then that’s been my reason
88:08
for doing something else yeah yeah and i
88:11
think the statistics would back you up
88:13
around that that uh you know it’s the
88:15
quality of you know one’s treatment that
88:17
is frequently cited by people you know
88:20
as the reason to leave an organization
88:23
it’s pretty easy for someone to say
88:25
they’re feeling burnt out but annie
88:26
harvey was able to give us a few
88:28
insights into not just what causes it
88:30
but how it manifests in the workplace
88:33
you said we don’t recognize the signs of
88:35
burnout what are they you don’t
88:37
recognize them at all do you reckon
88:38
you’ve ever been in that space oh 100
88:40
percent but
88:43
you said we often don’t um recognize
88:45
them i suppose we recognize it when
88:48
we’ve hit the wall at the end and it’s
88:49
all too hard and we quit the job
88:51
um
88:52
but maybe there are some signs earlier
88:54
on that might be good for us to know
88:56
about
88:57
also
88:58
if you i mean the world health
89:00
organization a couple of years ago um
89:03
basically said that
89:05
burnout is a syndrome and it results
89:07
from
89:08
chronic workplace stress over a period
89:10
of time that hasn’t been successfully
89:11
managed now obviously it’s not just
89:12
about workplace stress we bring all our
89:15
other stresses into our workplace
89:18
but they give us three things to look
89:19
out for you kind of have to have all
89:21
three so one of them is emotional
89:22
exhaustion or sometimes i call that the
89:24
sunday night feeling
89:26
but you have to have it regularly it’s
89:28
not like a one-off and then attached to
89:30
that is cynicism about you know your job
89:33
or your family or your work colleagues
89:35
or whatever
89:36
and then the third thing to have on top
89:38
of that is what they call reduced
89:40
self-efficacy which is
89:44
a reduced belief in you being competent
89:46
in doing your job basically
89:48
and if you have all three
89:50
in theory you’re you’re on a journey to
89:52
burning out if you’re not already there
89:55
does that make sense yeah and i hadn’t
89:57
actually thought of burnout as being i
89:59
suppose a um
90:00
a medical term i i thought it was just
90:03
being that emotional feeling but um now
90:07
you define it like that i can definitely
90:09
say that i’ve experienced those three in
90:12
uh situations where uh
90:15
it didn’t take much longer than the
90:17
starts of those feelings to you know it
90:19
was all too hard
90:20
exactly yeah and i think you know i
90:22
think it’s really critical that
90:24
people know how close they are to you
90:26
know what we call falling off the cliff
90:27
because once you fall off once you’re
90:29
burnt out
90:30
it takes a really long time to heal it’s
90:32
not like you know bouncing back as we
90:34
like to call it after a couple of weeks
90:36
it can take
90:37
six months or even up to two years to
90:39
actually heal from that so i think it’s
90:42
great that the
90:43
world health organization have kind of
90:44
put it on the map for us and recognize
90:46
it as a syndrome
90:48
i know i’ve walked the cliff face of
90:50
burnout many times throughout my career
90:52
and from earlier in the episode it
90:54
certainly sounds like i fell off the
90:55
cliff
90:57
that’s not to say though that all
90:58
businesses are doing a bad job no no not
91:00
at all i mean i’ve worked with some
91:01
really great businesses who put
91:03
incentives and activities in place
91:05
to improve staff well-being we do have
91:07
some doubts though about sometimes
91:09
whether the tactics that employers put
91:11
in are tone deaf we’ve explored that
91:13
with jane madden
91:14
i’m thinking there’s also a level of
91:16
risk with some of the ways that some
91:18
companies actually do try to promote a
91:20
good culture i’m thinking of a
91:22
particular example where a company that
91:24
had a mandated day every month where
91:26
they had cake for everybody and then
91:28
every now and then they decided they
91:29
might actually donate the proceeds of
91:31
that to a charity or for one reason or
91:34
other it didn’t happen but then when it
91:35
didn’t happen that actually bred
91:37
suspicion amongst them yeah and it’s
91:39
funny because as i said that that mark
91:42
of integrity to say that you’ll do
91:44
something and then not to follow through
91:46
it makes people you know not have the
91:48
trust in their team leaders in their
91:51
executives and it may only be a small
91:53
thing but people do have to deliver what
91:55
they say they do and quite quickly trust
91:57
can break down it can take a long time
91:59
to build but it can you know quite
92:02
quickly uh uh break down and even
92:05
schools like you know harvard business
92:06
school are talking about you know the
92:08
absolute criticality of authentic
92:11
leadership and having you know people
92:14
committed to saying what they’re doing
92:15
and working according to
92:18
how they say they’re going to work and
92:19
then if it’s not happening reporting and
92:21
that honesty that integrity
92:24
is important even though it might be uh
92:26
bearing get bad news or acknowledging
92:29
that you haven’t been able to meet you
92:30
know ambitious targets that boards or
92:33
the company had set it kind of feels
92:35
like we need to focus more on the
92:36
quality of relationships rather than
92:38
giving people things and those things
92:40
will happen more naturally if the
92:41
relationships are good yeah there’s a
92:43
really interesting debate waging at the
92:45
moment about how important you know
92:47
performance bonuses and remuneration and
92:50
i know from some of the surveys i’ve
92:53
seen that particularly in the last 12
92:55
months with what we’ve gone through with
92:57
coronavirus is people realize money
93:00
you know a certain amount is certainly
93:02
necessary but it doesn’t necessarily buy
93:03
your happiness and if you’re feeling you
93:05
know you’ve got flexibility with your
93:07
workplace that your you know
93:09
contribution is valued you’re respected
93:11
by colleagues they’re also respectful of
93:13
you know other pressures upon you
93:16
these things you know you have a much
93:17
better monetary uh
93:19
reward than
93:21
you know she had dollars and cents
93:23
uh and so that it’s entered a new phase
93:26
i think with uh what what workplaces
93:28
have done uh in the last uh 12 to 18
93:31
months and the future of the workplace
93:32
is really really changing you know that
93:35
presenteeism just being there and
93:37
turning up is you know so much less
93:39
important now people are looking to see
93:42
what the real contribution of people are
93:44
when they’re not actually in the same
93:46
physical location offices in australia
93:48
aren’t going to be the same uh as they
93:50
were before covert people are coming in
93:53
not just not to work because they can
93:55
work anywhere they’re coming in um you
93:58
know to collaborate so meeting spaces
94:00
are more important and the second reason
94:02
that i hear people are coming in is to
94:04
for all those cultural reasons you know
94:06
to connect with their colleagues to see
94:08
each other to have a sense that they’re
94:10
working as part of a team not just you
94:12
know in isolated studies and bedrooms
94:14
across the country um and i think that’s
94:17
changing you know the way organizations
94:19
will function going forward and the way
94:22
organizations will also treat uh
94:24
employees but i think it can be a new
94:27
normal that will be better both for
94:29
mental health and hopefully for
94:31
organizational culture generally so what
94:33
are the hallmarks of some of the better
94:35
cultures out there that you’ve seen the
94:36
standout characteristic uh to me is uh
94:39
integrity in the workplace so to have
94:42
ceos and executives saying they would
94:45
like to have this type of culture and
94:46
then not modeling or being authentic
94:49
themselves with regard to it so
94:52
if you have authentic leadership if you
94:56
have a culture that i said
94:58
earlier is respectful is you know
95:00
supportive of employees as individuals
95:03
makes everyone feel you know valued
95:06
their respective roles in an
95:08
organization you’ll find that it’s a
95:09
happier workplace it’s a more positive
95:11
culture and the results
95:14
will be higher too
95:16
burnout is a pretty big pain point for
95:18
businesses throughout the country
95:19
without much consensus on how to
95:21
approach it
95:22
i saw um
95:24
the stats i think said what we lose 33
95:26
billion dollars to burn out i’m i’m
95:28
going off the top of my head there is
95:30
that close to what it is well i would
95:31
think it would be a lot more across the
95:33
world at the moment yeah good point and
95:35
certainly in the next 18 months two
95:37
years i reckon so how can workplaces
95:39
kind of combat that then i mean if if
95:42
the way that we treat employees
95:44
heads them in that direction and then
95:45
it’s i mean not only bad for mental
95:47
health but bad for their bottom line
95:49
yeah absolutely i think um you know we
95:51
live in a bit of a blame society and
95:53
quite often as if we’re employed we
95:56
would blame the company for our work
95:59
hours and lack of balance and all that
96:01
kind of thing but where i sit is where
96:03
you can take responsibility i mean yes
96:05
it’s definitely down to the company
96:07
with regards to having all the processes
96:09
and policies in place certainly
96:11
supporting people who have serious
96:13
mental illness but i kind of sit in the
96:15
the prevention side i guess people being
96:17
proactive and and education because so
96:20
many people don’t even know some of the
96:22
signs of burnout i guess um
96:24
and then how they can put some really
96:26
simple
96:27
strategies and that’s really where i
96:29
come from is simple that they can walk
96:31
out the door and put into practice in
96:33
their life pretty quickly but yeah it’s
96:35
it’s a really big thing and also i talk
96:37
about we’ve heard a lot about
96:38
absenteeism and we can measure that but
96:40
there’s lots of
96:42
presenteeism and i would definitely have
96:44
been guilty of that even potentially
96:46
when i was a schoolteacher
96:48
10 years ago
96:49
was you know you’re kind of there but
96:50
the lights aren’t on kind of thing if
96:53
you know what i mean
96:55
that’s a term that i um i was really
96:57
struck by when we were reading through
96:59
some of the research this concept of
97:01
presenteeism do we need to sort of take
97:03
a step back and learn how to actually be
97:07
be more relaxed do we need to look after
97:09
ourselves better in the workplace yeah
97:11
absolutely and i think you know
97:13
sometimes i do a presentation called
97:15
it’s not bubbles and band-aids so a lot
97:18
of people will say well i look after my
97:20
well-being i have my regular massage and
97:23
i have bubbles with my friends at the
97:24
weekend or i have a bubble bath and i’m
97:26
not telling people to stop any of that
97:28
but i think that’s often a band-aid it’s
97:31
a short-term strategy and we need to
97:33
looking at within businesses and without
97:34
with ourselves how we can have a
97:36
long-term strategy for how we look after
97:38
ourselves and it’s it’s the age-old
97:40
thing of you know if we could fly
97:42
anywhere at the moment safely
97:44
we’d be told to put our oxygen mask on
97:46
first before helping others and i’ve
97:48
only got to this space of teaching
97:50
people this because i didn’t used to do
97:52
that i would never you know we put
97:54
ourselves at the bottom of the list and
97:55
it’s only through learning the hard way
97:57
that i’ve climbed back out up up to the
97:59
top of the cliff and now teaching people
98:01
how to do that or the signs if nothing
98:03
else i like this idea of keeping the
98:04
bubble bars in the mix but what are some
98:06
of the other things that we could
98:08
benefit from looking at when i look at
98:10
self-care um you know we all have we all
98:12
know what our own individual self-care
98:14
strategies might be but i’ve i try to
98:17
think about things that maybe people
98:18
can’t google so i look at what healthy
98:21
relationships are jim rohn once famously
98:24
said with we’re the average of the five
98:25
people we spend most time with
98:28
so if you if you just count that on your
98:30
hand and you two might have to include
98:31
your cats in that as well yeah
98:34
there’s a bit of laziness going on there
98:35
there’s a lot of destruction going on in
98:37
my house
98:39
um and then you’re you know you’re the
98:40
average of those five people so if you
98:42
wanted to in if you want to start
98:44
looking after yourself or i know
98:46
learning a new skill practicing
98:47
meditation or learning how to swim or
98:49
whatever it is or going on a particular
98:51
diet you don’t a lot you don’t marry
98:54
condo those people and ditch them out of
98:56
your lives but you start bringing people
98:58
into your circle of influence that can
99:00
raise that average because we all know
99:02
those people that don’t encourage us to
99:04
do that necessarily and i think when
99:06
we’re sick or we’re not feeling great we
99:08
don’t necessarily hang around with the
99:10
right people or the right strategies so
99:12
it’s not just people it’s books and
99:14
podcasts like this all sorts of things
99:16
that you can raise your average in
99:18
depending on how you’re going to look
99:20
after yourself
99:21
so just like sally goldner told us in
99:22
the last episode one of the best ways to
99:24
avoid burnout is to make sure that
99:26
workplace values align authentically
99:29
with the values of those working in the
99:30
business it’s not always going to be a
99:32
perfect fit though you know let’s be
99:33
honest we know from our conversations
99:35
with suzanne and hugh that perfection is
99:38
you know and it’s an elusive beast so
99:40
for those times when imperfection
99:42
pinches us we wanted to know what kind
99:44
of resources are available like what
99:46
would someone like jane madden do
99:48
what are some of the tools that are
99:49
available to help people in the
99:50
workplace with that there’s a lot of
99:53
online tools now certainly most of the
99:55
organizations have through googling like
99:58
dog institute mental health workplace or
100:00
any of the other major organizations
100:03
there’s a lot of videos that give
100:04
real-life depictions about scenarios
100:07
that have played out you know
100:09
there are some responsibilities
100:11
individually if you really your mental
100:14
health condition is impairing your
100:16
ability to do any requirements of your
100:19
job you might be able to get some
100:20
reasonable adjustments that help you
100:22
perform your role but it may be that you
100:25
also are impairing the team affecting
100:28
others and there is i think now a
100:31
requirement that with insurance company
100:33
that if you don’t disclose a mental
100:35
illness it can disentitle someone from
100:37
workers compensation you know should
100:39
they suffer major exacerbation of a
100:42
mental health illness so i think one
100:43
needs to sort of be brave to have some
100:46
of those discussions and to talk about
100:49
what is possible and it’s good that
100:51
we’ve got anonymous tools that gives us
100:54
ways to start the conversation no matter
100:56
how difficult it may be and i think the
100:59
one thing that i just want to remind you
101:01
of listeners is that it isn’t something
101:03
that is off to the side and something
101:05
that people you know can’t talk about it
101:08
affects so many of us and will affect so
101:10
many of us in our life there’s virtually
101:12
no one i know in all my different roles
101:14
that hasn’t either got themselves a
101:16
mental health problem or had one or had
101:19
family members we’re all touched by it
101:21
and we just sometimes need to sort of
101:24
take those first steps and you may be
101:25
surprised to find you know your manager
101:27
or your colleagues actually may well be
101:30
much more sympathetic and understanding
101:32
than sometimes you fear they might be
101:34
it’s been a bit of a stroll to make this
101:36
episode’s point
101:38
this has been a long walk do i need the
101:40
harp again
101:41
hang on we got if we got a flashback to
101:43
an earlier episode
101:48
this heart sound effect was worth its
101:50
money which was nothing i didn’t pay for
101:52
it it came with a road caster oh you
101:54
know what if this had been an actual
101:56
walk i think i would have burnt off at
101:58
least a mars bar by now it’s been a
101:59
pretty long stroll as long as it wasn’t
102:01
upstairs because gays don’t walk
102:02
upstairs i’ve heard correct exactly
102:04
we’re too lazy
102:07
um hugh kearns though back to hugh
102:09
kearns yeah yeah he made a really great
102:11
point about creating something new and
102:13
how we louise to find success for us is
102:16
it just about the money apparently not
102:18
or we’d have more um or is it about
102:20
being able to live our authentic values
102:23
while holding a space
102:25
where we and those that we work with can
102:27
look after ourselves
102:29
it kind of feels like culturally we’ve
102:31
kind of had a bit of a shift in the
102:32
definition of success as well because
102:34
when thinking back to the last olympic
102:36
games our medalists would get bronze but
102:39
they were being described as failures
102:42
through a lot of the media for not
102:43
getting gold do we need to have a bit of
102:45
a look at ourselves and and back off
102:47
well again yeah that comes back to the
102:49
expectations doesn’t it you know like in
102:51
what people expect of it and again
102:53
australia was having a fairly good run
102:55
for a while you think that’s what we
102:56
should have all the time and but that’s
102:58
probably not realistic either is you
102:59
know
103:01
for australia doing well you know all
103:03
the other countries are trying as hard
103:04
as well you know they’re just not
103:05
backing off and so they’re trying as
103:06
well and so it’s unrealistic to expect
103:08
you should win all the time you know why
103:10
why wouldn’t other people win
103:11
occasionally and so that’s that
103:13
expectations thing and that’s when yeah
103:14
sometimes you just have to realize no
103:16
this was the best we could do right now
103:18
that would be lovely to win but not
103:20
everyone’s going to win and people have
103:22
to learn how to cope with not winning
103:24
and other people winning and cope with
103:26
that because if only the winners can be
103:28
happy that means there’s an awful lot of
103:29
people who are going to be pretty
103:30
miserable in the world and so you have
103:31
to accept that people do the best they
103:33
can sometimes win songs lose you have to
103:36
go with that and again that’s when i
103:37
sort of get annoyed people think winning
103:38
is all that matters well that’s a fairly
103:41
limited sort of view of the world what
103:43
about all the other people sometimes you
103:44
do your best and sometimes it doesn’t
103:46
work out for a variety of reasons
103:48
okay now i mean
103:50
it only feels like i’m being slightly
103:51
attacked now um which is good
103:54
but it’s true yeah we love you
103:57
it’s true though like not everyone can
103:59
win a trophy yeah it doesn’t mean that
104:00
we can’t be happy with our slice of the
104:02
pie though we just need to get out of
104:04
our own way and cut ourselves a nice
104:06
slice
104:07
that’s an analogy i can get behind
104:08
unlike your second-hand chairs from the
104:12
from the second-hand chairs behind the
104:14
line in the sand what the macaroon is
104:16
it’s your second hand i’ve never heard
104:18
that before are you just making up
104:20
analogies
104:21
yeah
104:22
i love making up analogies
104:25
there are probably a few people are a
104:26
very small number of you who have a
104:28
fairly accurate view of themselves which
104:30
is i’m not the best i’m not the worst
104:32
i’m just doing what i can hear you know
104:33
this is okay and don’t spend too much
104:36
time doubting themselves they just go
104:37
look let’s get on with it and that’s
104:38
probably a fairly functional way to
104:39
behave really which is yeah look i’ll do
104:41
what i can
104:42
and we’ll cope with that as it comes out
104:44
but not so much worried about how other
104:46
people feel me or see me however that’s
104:48
that’s a fairly small number of people
104:50
really i think who are in that category
104:51
and for the rest of us and myself
104:53
included it’s come to terms with this is
104:55
a fairly normal thing in life that
104:57
questioning process and then get on with
104:59
things
105:00
and there’s something else that really
105:02
stuck with us the last time we spoke to
105:03
hugh
105:04
so is it useful then to kind of have a
105:06
bit of a look at who the best judge of
105:08
what failure is maybe it’s a bit of a
105:10
clumsy way of putting it but worst case
105:12
scenario if this project fails and we
105:14
don’t make money then worst case
105:16
scenario is the bank would foreclose
105:18
homelessness that kind of thing and the
105:20
realistic nature of those sorts of
105:22
things
105:23
for anybody in life it’s probably good
105:25
to have a plan b you know like let’s say
105:27
we do this thing what if it doesn’t work
105:29
well actually i have another fallback
105:30
position i can do something else we can
105:32
get our money whatever because
105:35
if there’s no plan b like if you take a
105:36
risk and the whole thing falls apart
105:38
that there’s a lot of pressure on at
105:39
that point and it comes some sense of
105:41
pressure is good it makes it work but
105:42
also it’s a bit scary and so then you
105:45
are will you take a risk will you do
105:46
things because this could be this could
105:48
be the end of the world so my view is
105:49
it’s probably good to have a plan b
105:51
which is well if that doesn’t work we
105:53
can manage another way it might not be
105:55
the best but we can manage it in some
105:56
way so if this fails well hang on
105:58
we have something else we can fall back
106:00
on along that way
106:01
instead of failure the way i view it
106:04
let’s say you do something new uh if it
106:06
doesn’t work okay it wasn’t what we
106:07
expected but we can do something else
106:09
with it or we can read we can reimagine
106:10
it or see it in a different way or
106:12
something like that right rather failure
106:14
the failure word i suppose tends to be a
106:16
final failure there is no come back from
106:18
it like it is the end is doomed and
106:20
generally life isn’t like that you know
106:22
if this doesn’t work yeah well we can do
106:23
something else and we’ll have a plan b
106:25
here we’ll work our way around that sort
106:26
of thing and i suppose that’s where a
106:28
more sensible approach would be is yeah
106:30
give it your best shot but realize if it
106:32
doesn’t work there’ll be something else
106:33
if you’re doubting yourself or you feel
106:35
like an imposter every now and again
106:36
welcome to the human race there’s
106:38
nothing wrong with you this is a normal
106:40
enough feeling every now and again to
106:41
have that thing but then don’t let it
106:43
stop you doing things don’t stop you
106:44
doing the things you enjoy doing and do
106:46
them because you want to do them i think
106:47
that’s the sort of summary is this is
106:49
this is a fairly normal thing and get on
106:51
with things and try out the things you
106:53
like doing and enjoy
106:54
so
106:55
here’s the next uncomfortable question
106:59
did we need more uncomfortable questions
107:01
in this episode
107:03
haven’t we all had enough
107:06
i think there’s going to be a few more
107:07
this is episode 11 out of 42 anyway
107:10
why am i still paying for therapy then i
107:13
don’t know i don’t know
107:14
i don’t know um but the question the
107:17
next uncomfortable question you ready
107:18
for it
107:19
how do we plan for the worst case
107:21
scenario
107:22
next time on reframe of mind we’ll speak
107:25
to derek mcmanus who has turned his
107:27
near-death experience in the line of
107:29
duty into a durability model of strength
107:32
and when we’re stepping into an unknown
107:33
territory what do we need to look at
107:36
my perspective to this overall is i went
107:38
to work i got shot i fell down i got up
107:40
i got better i went back to work i made
107:42
a choice to become a policeman i became
107:45
a sniper i became an underwater recovery
107:48
diver which is very dangerous in his own
107:50
realm i went away and trained with the
107:52
sas and counter terrorism i knew that
107:55
that job that i was choosing to do was
107:57
dangerous so i had to take a very close
107:59
look at the choices that i was making
108:01
and the possible consequences of that if
108:04
you’re concerned about yourself or
108:05
someone you know please seek
108:06
professional advice and support you can
108:09
contact beyond blue on 1300 224 636 or
108:13
at beyondblue.org dot a u or you can
108:16
contact lifeline on thirteen eleven
108:18
fourteen or lifeline.org dot a u more
108:21
resources can be found on our website
108:24
you’ve been hearing our story now we
108:26
really wanna hear yours connect with at
108:28
reframeofmind on instagram facebook
108:30
tiktok and twitter or connect with at
108:32
welcome change media on linkedin you can
108:34
also contact us via
108:36
reframeofmind.com.u with your stories or
108:38
suggestions for future topics we’d like
108:41
to thank today’s guests for sharing
108:42
their personal stories and insights and
108:44
for more information on any of the
108:45
subjects guests or references used in
108:48
this episode please see our show notes
108:50
or reframeofmind.com.edu
108:52
reframe of mind is a welcome change
108:54
media production
108:56
[Music]
109:00
how many people have picked their nose
109:02
listening to me i wonder
109:04
i’m sure they’ve done a lot of things
109:05
listening to you in the in the prisons i
109:08
used to
109:09
i told you i used to get faxes from the
109:10
prisons occasionally no yeah really
109:13
there were stories around that sometimes
109:15
prisoners tried to request songs to talk
109:17
to other people through song come on
109:19
eileen is not a request for the song
109:22
it’s code for something else looking out
109:24
my back door
109:26
is
109:28
got one hand in my pocket um
109:30
[Laughter]
109:33
jailbreak by hctc and tonight tonight by
109:36
the smashing pumpkins
109:40
[Applause]
109:41
[Music]
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