Reframe of Mind

Episode 11: Mental health & workplace culture; Is there a better way?

Andy Le Roy & Louise Poole

We’ve all either been through sustained high stress in the workplace or known someone who has, and when we’re encouraged to bring “all of ourselves to work” it usually contains an unspoken parenthesis with the words “except that bit”.

So what happens when the stress becomes so unmanageable that we start to burn out?

How accountable are workplaces for providing an environment that promotes good mental health? And where is the a boundary between workplace stressors and those that can too easily spill in from everyday life?

In this episode of Reframe of Mind, Louise and Andy explore their own experiences with stress and burnout in the workplace with some food for thought from their previous guests Sally Goldner AM, Suzanne Mercier and Hugh Kearns while introducing new guests Jane Madden, Board Director at Black Dog Institute and Workplace Pattern Interruptor, Annie Harvey.

You can connect with Louise & Andy on Reframe of Mind’s social media directly below:

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Reframe of Mind contains discussion around mental health that may be disturbing to some listeners. If you are concerned about yourself or someone you know, please seek professional individual advice. 

Some of the main crisis lines in Australia are listed on our Mental Health Crisis Resources page, including those that operate 24/7 like Beyond Blue and Lifeline.

Guests this episode:

Jane Madden

Board Director, Black Dog Institute; Chair, Fred Hollows Foundation

Annie Harvey

Mindfulness expert, author & workplace pattern interrupter

Sally Goldner AM

Diversity Trans-relator, Educator, Speaker, Life Coach & Consultant

Suzanne Mercier

Imposter Syndrome Expert, Founder Purpose to Profit

Hugh Kearns

Researcher & Educator, Flinders University Founder iThinkwell

Gallery

Show Notes:

Here’s some extra things you might not know about our guests, as well as some of the things mentioned during the episode.

Jane Madden

Jane Madden is on the Board of Directors for the Black Dog Institute  , Chair of the Fred Hollows Foundation, and Principal of Brickfielder Insights.

Jane is a highly experienced senior executive with over thirty years experience in Australia’s public sector and diplomatic service, including as Deputy Secretary in the Australian Government at Australia’s trade and investment agency, Austrade; Chief Operating Officer of the Digital Transformation Office and held senior roles within the Department of Resources, Energy and Tourism, and with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT). She has worked extensively overseas, including as Australian Ambassador to UNESCO, Deputy Ambassador to France and Counsellor in Japan.

You can connect with Jane on LinkedIn.

 

Take the Black Dog Institute’s online mental health checkup here.

Watch a Black Dog Institute playlist for workplace mental health on Youtube below:

Annie Harvey

Annie works with adults and teens to help maximise their wellbeing and resilience. In our current world of ‘busyness’, she shows us not only how to be STILL just for a few moments, but also shares her own strategies to prevent burnout. All her tools are evidenced based and well researched and she only shares what she uses herself.

Annie works with individuals and groups: from Education to Health & Social Work, from Public to the Corporate sector. Annie offers keynotes, energisers, workshops, training and 1:1 mentoring and coaching.

Check out Annie’s website The Still Effect here.

Watch Annie’s Ted Talk on Laughter:

Sally Goldner AM

Sally Goldner is a strong leader and advocate within her community, and has enormous strengths any good leader would aspire to.  She’s been advocating for change long before keyboards became the fertile ground from which we shout. Sally first disclosed as trans in 1985, at which time it had only been seven years since the first Mardi Gras in Sydney, which in 1978 was actually a protest march.

In 1999, Sally became a founding committee member of what became Transgender Victoria which, in 2013 was a major contributor to additions to the federal Sex Discrimination Act covering gender identity, sexual orientation, and intersex status.

Listen to Episode 10 of Reframe of Mind, where we learnt more of Sally’s story:

Sally is a founding member of Transgender Victoria:

Read some of the articles Sally has written for SBS

Watch Sally discuss why we need to be doing better in aged care:

Sally has also advised diverse committees and advisory groups including:

● the LGBTI Police Working Group (and its predecessors)

● the Victorian government LGBTI Justice Working Group from 2006-10 and 2015 to 2017

● Hobsons Bay LGBTI Advisory Group (2011-2016)

● Manningham Mental Health Advisory group (2013-2018)

● Jewish Community Council of Victoria LGBTI advisory group (2009-2012)

Suzanne Mercier

Suzanne is a performance catalyst working with business owners, entrepreneurs and leaders to help them recognise and develop their potential. She is considered to be Australia’s expert on identifying and moving beyond limiting mindsets including the Imposter Syndrome.

Listen to Episode 8 of Reframe of Mind, where we learnt more about Suzanne’s story:

Hugh Kearns

Hugh Kearns is recognised internationally as a public speaker, educator and researcher. His areas of expertise include self-management, positive psychology, work-life balance, learning and creativity. 

Hugh lectures and researches at Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia. He is widely recognised for his ability to take the latest research in psychology and education and apply it to high-performing people and groups. As a co-author with Maria Gardiner, he has published ten books which are in high demand both in Australia and internationally.

Listen to Episode 9 of Reframe of Mind where we discuss The Imposter Cycle with Hugh:

Watch a keynote speech from Hugh Kearns on Imposter Syndrome here:

Transcript

Read along with the Youtube episode here: 

Youtube transcript:

00:00

we acknowledge the Yuggera and Kaurna

00:01

nations as traditional custodians of the

00:03

land on which we work live and learn and

00:06

their continuing connection with the

00:07

land waters and community we pay our

00:09

respects to them and their elders past

00:11

and present all content related to this

00:13

program is for general informational

00:15

purposes only and contains stories and

00:17

discussion around mental health that may

00:20

be disturbing to some listeners if you

00:22

are concerned about yourself or someone

00:24

you know please seek professional and

00:26

individual advice and support

00:28

more details are contained in our show

00:30

Notes

00:31

tired of being told you can’t exist in a

00:34

Vacuum

00:35

well now you can suck at 3 000.

00:39

we’ve all had those pesky relationships

00:41

we just can’t get right

00:44

get ready to suck it and hoover up all

00:47

those people who don’t agree with you

00:51

eliminate all of those unnecessary

00:53

attachments and leave those dirt bags

00:56

for dust

00:58

the new suck it 3000 is everything

01:02

you’ve been looking for

01:05

when you suck it you’re always right

01:08

because there’s nobody left to argue

01:10

with wet or dry

01:13

suck it to remove those awkward

01:16

situations you find yourself in all over

01:19

Again

01:20

and did we mention you’ll never find an

01:23

opposing opinion ever again but don’t

01:26

take my word for it

01:30

i’ve been a fan of the socket range

01:32

since the socket 1000 got rid of my

01:35

toxic high school friends

01:37

then the sucker 2000 got rid of my toxic

01:40

husband and all of my toxic colleagues

01:43

as someone who’s always surrounded by so

01:46

many toxic people i can’t wait to see

01:49

what the sucker 3000 cleans us

01:52

i had to keep changing jobs for decades

01:55

because there’d be toxic bosses

01:57

but with the suck at 3000

02:00

there’s no one left to boss me around

02:04

my toxic girlfriend kept nagging me to

02:06

pick up the dirty wet towels off the

02:07

floor and clean up my messes when i just

02:09

wanted to decompress after i came home

02:11

from work and playing the xbox then i

02:14

got the sucker 3000 underwear no more

02:16

nagging and i just stopped using towels

02:18

problem solved

02:20

what are you waiting for

02:22

call now and start living in your own

02:24

vacuum today

02:26

one two suck it three thousand

02:30

get vacuuming today and see what

02:33

existing without those annoying other

02:35

people interacting with you is really

02:37

like

02:40

i started living in a vacuum and i love

02:43

it

02:45

hello

02:48

hello don’t be antibacks act now

02:52

this is the booster you’ve been waiting

02:54

for

02:56

but wait there’s more call in the next

02:59

10 minutes and receive this turbo really

03:02

brush off head

03:04

perfect for all those related by blood

03:07

stains

03:09

what are you waiting for

03:11

one two

03:12

suck it three thousand

03:16

i feel attacked andy yeah well at least

03:18

now we’re mainly feeling attacked by

03:20

ourselves though that’s us not living in

03:22

a vacuum and this

03:24

is reframe of mind

03:26

the podcast that cuts through the

03:27

platter shoots and gets to the core of

03:29

living authentically challenging our

03:30

assumptions and improving mental health

03:32

with the guidance of good science

03:33

philosophy and learning from other

03:35

people’s lived experiences we’re your

03:37

hosts andy leroy and louise poole and

03:39

we’re at episode 11 of reframe of mind

03:42

now andy can you believe it i can but

03:45

only because we plotted out 42 episodes

03:47

what i can’t believe is people are still

03:48

listening oh well

03:51

it’s cause we’re awesome hello maybe

03:52

it’s because we’re sharing our deep dark

03:54

secrets or dark deep secrets according

03:58

to the paper um

04:00

we’re at that part of our journey where

04:02

we’ve been navigating our feelings on

04:04

some deeply personal matters and

04:05

responding in ways that support us look

04:07

as best we know how yeah and we’ve also

04:10

at this point embarked on a business

04:12

venture together called welcome change

04:13

media and started realizing that similar

04:16

challenges are cropping up for us

04:17

psychologically as we got more invested

04:20

in that

04:21

like your little voice that sounded like

04:23

a paradon repeat at times saying we

04:25

don’t live in a vacuum

04:27

we don’t live in a vacuum

04:31

as flattering as the description is

04:34

it is kind of accurate

04:36

but we wanted to make sure that we

04:38

weren’t clearing the decks only to buy

04:39

the chairs back from a second-hand

04:41

dealer to create the same effect that

04:43

reminds me of very much of your line in

04:45

the sand analogy that i didn’t get then

04:47

and still don’t get now

04:50

but i’m sure someone that’s listening

04:52

we’ll get it

04:53

so long as it’s not the titanic we’re

04:55

all good and when we spoke to sally

04:56

goldner am last episode it got us

04:59

thinking about whether what we’ve

05:00

embarked on is really something new or

05:02

if we’ve just been trying to recreate

05:03

what we’ve been doing all along

05:06

we hear a lot well sometimes we don’t

05:09

hear about organizations and values and

05:11

then sometimes yeah we’ve got an

05:13

organisation that points to a value

05:15

statement i had a really good diagram

05:17

about this on a webinar i was on a few

05:20

months ago and imagine the proverbial

05:22

archery target and sure the center the

05:24

bullseye in the center is values and

05:26

then the next ring out is behaviours and

05:29

so the problem is when behaviours aren’t

05:32

consistently ring don’t reinforce those

05:34

values or where people don’t look at

05:36

their behaviors and go oh hang on we’re

05:39

not matching here that’s where things

05:41

break down

05:42

so we’re going to take a deep dive into

05:44

organizational values later in this

05:46

episode and how this can impact

05:48

employers and employees yeah and jane

05:50

madden board member for the black dog

05:52

institute and chair for the fred hollows

05:54

foundation chats to us a little bit

05:55

later about mental health in the

05:57

workplace

05:58

mental health is everyone’s business and

06:00

i think it doesn’t matter whether you’re

06:03

a student or in

06:05

perhaps in a leadership role with you in

06:07

government or the not-for-profit sector

06:09

that it is everyone’s business and i

06:11

think the covert crisis has just brought

06:14

a new awareness and encouraged even more

06:16

conversations about mental health in

06:19

australia

06:21

and mindfulness author and burnout

06:23

expert annie harvey walks us through

06:25

what to look out for and what can help

06:28

i think it’s really critical that people

06:29

know how close they are to what we call

06:31

falling off the cliff because once you

06:32

fall off once you burn out it takes a

06:35

really long time to heal it’s not like

06:37

bouncing back as we like to call it

06:39

after a couple of weeks it can take six

06:40

months or even up to two years to

06:42

actually heal from that

06:44

so i think we need to take this back to

06:47

the day we first met louise okay hang on

06:50

let me get my heart out

06:51

[Music]

06:54

okay ah

06:56

okay now that now we’re back in time it

06:58

was wet season

07:00

2009 tell someone that that’s a very

07:03

darwin northern territory term um it is

07:06

before i go googling wet season and it

07:09

comes up with not families friendly

07:10

results

07:11

exactly

07:13

so it was january 2009 and i was flying

07:17

into darwin for the very first time i’d

07:18

never been there before it was very

07:19

exciting i’d lived in sydney all my life

07:22

basically pretty much and i was invited

07:25

to come and work for a radio station on

07:28

their drive program and to be their

07:30

music director and i was so excited it’s

07:32

great it was my first commercial radio

07:33

gig and i gave you that job you did so

07:36

you owe me now

07:37

[Laughter]

07:39

well

07:40

we’ll get down to the accountancy of

07:42

what

07:43

you always want a bit later but

07:46

so you you left that job you left me

07:48

there alone i mean i did whatever

07:51

um

07:53

and so we didn’t work professionally

07:55

together again until we started this

07:56

business so that’s what i mean 10 12

07:59

years well look i left darwin in 2010 so

08:03

that’s when i moved to adelaide so yeah

08:05

it’s 12 years

08:06

pretty much 11 years at a lapse by the

08:08

time we started talking about welcome

08:11

change media and you went into which

08:13

industries okay so when i moved to

08:16

adelaide i went and managed a community

08:18

radio station for a while

08:20

and then i moved around a little bit

08:22

career-wise so i took various leadership

08:24

positions in a few different places so

08:27

i’ve managed things from a little team

08:30

in aged care doing resident lifestyle

08:32

through to telecommunications and

08:34

internet i even worked on a help desk at

08:36

one point teaching people that’s why i’m

08:37

so good with the computer to turn their

08:39

computers on and off switch it on it’s

08:41

power cycle again yeah power cycle right

08:43

um

08:44

it’s out of scope madam i’m sorry i

08:46

don’t deal with microsoft mail but i’m

08:48

willing to help you because i’ve got

08:50

great customer service skills that kind

08:52

of stuff and you know i was quite happy

08:54

in that because i worked in call centers

08:57

before working in radio and i’d worked

08:59

in office jobs you know i’d been in a

09:01

government position before you employed

09:03

me i was seven years working for a

09:05

government agency before that so i guess

09:07

i went back to a comfort zone you know i

09:09

didn’t enter media from a young age so

09:12

it didn’t feel like it was necessarily

09:14

my patch like that so i i went back and

09:16

did other things and i was quite happy

09:18

yeah but there was still that itch

09:20

there’s always that itch

09:21

my journey is i suppose the opposite of

09:23

yours i did start in media from a young

09:25

age i’ve often said i’ve never had a

09:27

real job because every paid job i’ve

09:29

ever had has been working in commercial

09:31

media in some way shape or form i don’t

09:33

know what it’s like to do something else

09:35

i don’t know what it’s like to stack

09:36

shelves at woolies neither do i

09:38

[Laughter]

09:40

my world has been this uh insular media

09:43

thing and so after we parted ways in

09:45

darwin i ended up moving to a couple of

09:47

other jobs but eventually making my way

09:49

to brisbane and being on the radio doing

09:52

the music

09:53

i spent eight and a bit years pretty

09:56

much in the number one and two slot of

09:58

brisbane commercial radio in the

10:00

mornings so while i was assisting in

10:02

some ways to lift people to the toilet

10:04

you were actually speaking to people in

10:06

a prime time position well they were on

10:08

the toilet probably they were probably

10:10

on the toilet i would i would have been

10:12

[Laughter]

10:14

directly to your loo

10:16

i was there with you when you were in

10:18

the car on the way to work and you

10:19

picked your nose and you thought no one

10:21

could see you because you were in the

10:22

car and it’s like a little fortress

10:25

motion by motion with louise poole

10:28

i was there with you when you were

10:30

shopping and you heard someone talk

10:32

right up to the start of a song

10:34

and you thought why don’t they just play

10:36

the song

10:37

why can’t they just play the intro and

10:39

not talk over it in the wreck

10:41

because in radio world we have these

10:43

competitions where we talk to the post

10:45

so you’re never ever going to get a

10:47

situation where they’re not going to

10:48

talk over it that kind of wraps up i

10:50

don’t know that’s ten years in three

10:52

minutes right it’s about i think so

10:55

that’s the very very shortened edition

10:57

do you need to play the outgoing harper

10:59

will be good um i mean i can get it

11:00

should i i’ll play it backwards hang on

11:05

[Applause]

11:07

it sounds a lot like it does forwards

11:09

doesn’t it yeah it does doesn’t sound a

11:11

lot different no so we started this

11:12

business welcome change media with both

11:14

of those backgrounds that’s where we

11:16

come from and we got together in 2020 to

11:18

make it and we genuinely wanted to make

11:20

something that has never been done

11:22

before but the way we imagine it to be

11:25

yeah and boy was it easy for us to let

11:27

our imaginations run wild with the

11:29

excitement of everything we wanted to do

11:31

and what we knew we were capable of

11:32

doing and i think at that time when we

11:34

first started what you needed to work on

11:36

was letting go of being that underling

11:38

or assistant that old boss dynamic that

11:40

you had with me because we were 50 50 in

11:42

a partnership yeah and i think in the

11:44

same way you need to let go of from

11:47

doing everything all the time to justify

11:48

making things that you want to make

11:50

cold out

11:53

ouch and personally i think we’ve been

11:55

changed by the experiences in between

11:58

that led us to this point as well

12:01

[Music]

12:02

so i think we need to throw back now to

12:05

just a little under a year ago um we

12:08

just started the business episode one is

12:10

a really good point to that beginning

12:13

where my radio career had ended and andy

12:16

had experienced a major shift in family

12:18

dynamics after his dad had died um we

12:20

just gotten welcome change media going

12:23

and then we had to take on some other

12:25

opinions yeah so as we’re starting the

12:28

new venture together excited about all

12:30

the possibilities this is where we

12:32

started to have to contend with our

12:33

partners concerns about money not coming

12:35

in while we focused on building things

12:37

the way we wanted to in the right way it

12:39

has and it still does at times lead us

12:42

to wonder if we’re making decisions that

12:44

are right for us or if they’re ones that

12:46

we feel like we have to make to be

12:48

successful yeah we don’t want to just go

12:50

around taking money off any random sort

12:52

of person that wants to give it to us

12:54

because we need to make sure that what

12:55

we’re helping them to promote is also in

12:57

line with our values it’s that

12:58

authenticity isn’t it it is yeah and a

13:02

couple of episodes ago in episode nine

13:04

we met hugh kearns who is a lecturer and

13:06

researcher in the area of high

13:07

performance at flinders university and

13:09

hugh gave us an interesting perspective

13:11

on this related to the imposter syndrome

13:14

we sometimes use our own imposter

13:16

syndrome to deflect that onto other

13:19

people an example i’m thinking of was

13:20

recently when luis and i played an early

13:23

audio draft to some of our friends our

13:26

significant others consistently between

13:28

the two of them told us that our part of

13:31

it wasn’t that great but the other

13:32

persons was which was a bit strange

13:36

yeah we’re still holding it against them

13:38

yes well

13:39

well first of all um i suppose as an

13:42

outsider observing or i’d be thinking

13:44

well let’s look at the facts here you

13:45

know i don’t know maybe that’s true it

13:47

is the case no let’s not listen to it or

13:49

maybe and again it’ll probably be to do

13:52

with their expectations of you as well

13:53

they’ll be thinking well you have done

13:54

so you should do more or if the other

13:56

person has never talked before maybe

13:58

they were good because they started so

13:59

people have a whole range of

14:00

expectations so i suppose what i’d be

14:02

trying to do is sit down objectively and

14:03

look at it and go what is going on here

14:06

was that the case and it could be maybe

14:07

the present maybe the person you’re

14:09

interviewing was just awesome that

14:10

sounds brilliant and uh

14:12

or maybe you did get it wrong or maybe

14:13

not and so again uh without actually

14:16

having seen the event i’m not so sure

14:18

what would really be going on there so

14:19

yeah so i i i’ll be having a little chat

14:21

with you sticking with other and say

14:23

well you could be nice here as well yeah

14:25

it was just an interesting um sidetrack

14:26

for us because normally we turn to our

14:29

significant others family friends for

14:32

the default praise and that’s often

14:34

something that we’ll use to say oh well

14:35

you know they would say that because

14:37

that’s right yeah yeah because we’re so

14:38

closely linked um just seemed like a

14:40

really odd turnaround yeah

14:43

here’s a little secret you can tell your

14:44

family as well or anyone but when

14:46

anybody ever asks you for feedback they

14:48

probably don’t want feedback at all they

14:50

just want someone to tell you that you

14:51

were right

14:53

[Laughter]

14:55

this is a

14:56

a little relationship tip you learn

14:58

early on in life you know when your

14:59

partner asks you know what do you really

15:00

think

15:01

that’s not what they mean

15:03

i love it

15:04

i love it that’s right

15:08

when you’re when your partner is trying

15:09

on clothes how does this look on me this

15:11

looks great

15:13

yes it’s amazing great in that so yeah

15:15

so you got to be a little bit careful

15:17

about uh

15:18

why people give feedback or when they

15:19

ask for it you know how honest do you

15:21

really want to be

15:23

so what you said actually caused us to

15:25

have a think about our expectations that

15:27

we’re placing on ourselves andy i think

15:28

it’s time to

15:30

get out the heart

15:31

go for it

15:33

[Music]

15:35

so cast your mind back again um

15:38

because this our story is taking place

15:40

in two different timelines it’s starting

15:42

to be uh very tenet here um

15:45

not to get too revolving doors about at

15:47

all but

15:48

um because we’re telling you a story uh

15:51

around stuff that was happening to us

15:52

when we were first interviewing these

15:54

guests and it was last year so last

15:56

episode you heard from sally golden am

15:59

in our real time now but we actually

16:02

spoke to sally golden up almost a year

16:04

ago in the other timeline yeah and i

16:07

think it’s fair to say that we were both

16:09

in pretty different head spaces at the

16:11

time from where we were coming from on

16:13

our own personal journeys you know for

16:15

me you know we’ve said different parts

16:17

of recapping the series so far that i

16:19

just lost my father and that’s true and

16:22

he still hasn’t come back because he

16:23

died but where i was within all that as

16:26

well not to be too flippant about it is

16:28

that my whole

16:30

model of the world changed when he died

16:33

because

16:34

the family of orientation which i’ve

16:36

covered as a concept

16:38

some episodes back episode one i think

16:39

that was now anybody who cares to listen

16:41

back to that one it kind of speaks to

16:43

the family that you’re born into

16:45

traditionally if you are living the

16:48

prescribed heterosexual life you’ll go

16:50

and find a partner you’ll have children

16:52

and then you’ll create your own family

16:54

of procreation so when my father died

16:57

that was the linchpin of my family of

16:59

orientation that was then gone so then

17:02

the family tree splits into its own vows

17:05

and you know i’m the end i’m the

17:06

beginning and the end of my my branch so

17:09

i don’t have any children and you know

17:10

i’ve talked about that in different ways

17:13

in different kind of emotional states

17:15

over the years i’m quite okay with all

17:17

of that you know but at that point this

17:20

was all very raw for me when we were

17:21

speaking to sally so it kind of became

17:24

apparent to me at one point that even

17:26

though i have been out as gay since i

17:30

was 24 which is you know a good 26 years

17:32

or so ago now i still acted in certain

17:35

ways to shield people from what i

17:37

thought was unacceptable about that part

17:40

of me so you know the relationships that

17:43

i have had were accepted by my family

17:46

and my partners were accepted by my

17:47

family and for that you know i’m really

17:49

grateful and it shouldn’t even have to

17:51

be an issue or something to be having to

17:53

say that i’m grateful for or declare

17:55

that i’m grateful for because it should

17:57

just be

17:58

here’s andy’s partner you know but it’s

18:00

not always the case and there are

18:02

certain things that i’ve mentioned that

18:04

have happened growing up as well where

18:06

before i even i was aware that i was gay

18:08

but i became aware that my family didn’t

18:11

approve of gay people very early in life

18:14

and thankfully that had changed by the

18:16

time they actually realized that they

18:18

had someone who was gay in their own

18:19

family mostly

18:21

so you know there’s all of this editing

18:23

of your personality and self-editing

18:26

we’re doing that to ourselves yeah

18:27

absolutely self-editing is is definitely

18:30

what’s going on there because we want to

18:32

make sure that we are projecting an

18:35

acceptable version of ourselves to the

18:37

people that we love because if we don’t

18:39

we’ll be rejected um which uh

18:42

another throwback and i i’ve put the

18:44

harp away temporarily but um

18:47

episode five we spoke to joe fargus

18:49

about that in regards to tribalism um

18:52

and and that concept of being rejected

18:54

from the tribe and how evolutionarily

18:56

that wasn’t a good thing because you

18:58

know being thrown out of the tribe meant

19:00

dead eaten by a tiger those feelings

19:02

still hang over even though we’re no

19:04

longer living in you know the jungle so

19:07

to come back to the point of where i was

19:09

also psychologically when we were

19:11

speaking to sally you know all of this

19:13

stuff that we’ve spoken to joe about is

19:15

also really really pivotal in how i’m

19:18

starting to really relate to myself now

19:20

as well because suddenly at this point i

19:22

wanted to break free from just passively

19:24

accepting other people’s comments and

19:26

other people’s opinions and trying to

19:28

mold myself to them because you know

19:30

that kind of says that their truth is

19:32

more important than me or my truth so

19:35

you know this is kind of where some of

19:37

the questions that i’m asking and some

19:39

of the insights that i’m saying to glean

19:40

from these conversations are really

19:42

starting to make a real impact on me

19:43

valuing myself fully valuing myself and

19:46

it’s tricky too because one of the

19:48

things you’ve maintained from the

19:49

beginning is as we’ve been talking this

19:51

whole thing is that you don’t want the

19:52

relationships that you already have with

19:54

people that you love to end um but you

19:56

want to rebuild them in a way that’s

19:57

authentic and honest and honest for you

19:59

when the timing’s right yeah exactly so

20:02

you know when i talk about certain

20:03

patterns of behavior i talk about a

20:05

tendency for

20:07

families or friendship groups i don’t

20:09

know whether it’s necessarily an

20:11

australian thing or whether it’s

20:12

particular to certain types of people or

20:15

certain people but there is this whole

20:17

situation where we find a common a

20:20

common like weakling to yeah to set

20:23

ourselves on so it’s either your typical

20:26

laughing stock or it’s your typical

20:27

person who is the villain or you know

20:30

insert other here if we all get together

20:33

and other somebody else then we can have

20:35

something in common that’s right and

20:37

that’s that tribal sameness that we

20:39

build around that and i’d noticed over a

20:42

lot of years that that pattern of

20:44

relating had crept into a lot of my

20:47

relationships not just family but i

20:49

could pinpoint it from friendship

20:50

circles from years ago and even looking

20:53

at recent friendships as well i can

20:55

still see that trying to creep in and

20:57

i’ve really got to pull myself back and

21:00

remind myself that that’s not actually

21:02

who i am and not actually what i want

21:04

and if i keep participating in it then

21:05

i’m only going to keep getting it do you

21:07

think you were feeling that you weren’t

21:09

equal to everybody else oh yeah

21:11

absolutely what people say rings true

21:13

when they say you know if somebody is

21:15

talking about somebody else that way

21:16

what are they saying about you because i

21:19

have a lot of empathy because i actually

21:22

do listen to people and do relate to

21:23

them and do try to put myself in their

21:25

shoes that then extends to hang on a

21:27

minute so

21:29

what’s wrong with me

21:30

now like if if this person is

21:33

worthy of being laughed at for this

21:34

reason then what am i worthy of being

21:36

laughed at for how am i weird what am i

21:38

doing that’s you know not acceptable so

21:41

yeah there are lots of ways that i felt

21:43

like i wasn’t equal i can talk about

21:45

this in terms of okay let’s go right

21:47

back to childhood let’s go back i’m

21:48

gonna get the height

21:50

look i think you’re gonna need a

21:51

harpsichord for this one because we’re

21:53

going back to medieval times i don’t

21:55

have a button for that

21:59

[Laughter]

22:03

that’s a distant memory of harper

22:05

and his first appearance in an interview

22:07

i don’t have a harpsichord it turns out

22:08

i have a harp and a cat meow and a cat

22:11

called harpo yelling

22:14

so close enough

22:16

being the youngest child in my

22:17

experience manifested in me feeling

22:21

inadequate in a lot of ways because i

22:23

was always the one that had to be taught

22:25

i was always the one that didn’t know

22:26

enough i was always the one that thought

22:27

they knew better and didn’t actually

22:28

know that kind of it’s taken a

22:31

long time for me to grow out of that

22:33

mindset and to take myself out of that

22:35

and to actually value myself and to

22:37

value the experience that i’ve got

22:38

because when i interact with other

22:40

people outside of that dynamic they

22:42

don’t see that person they don’t see

22:43

that version of me i’ve commented before

22:46

how a previous partner would say to me

22:48

that when i was with my family i was

22:50

completely different person and it’s

22:51

true because i was re-entering that old

22:54

script that old pattern of behavior that

22:57

i felt that i had to to be acceptable

23:00

otherwise

23:02

so yeah i mean to come back to your

23:04

question about whether i feel equal or

23:05

not like a lot of the times no and i

23:07

know that came out as well early on in

23:10

our business relationship in our

23:11

partnership where i kept referring to

23:13

you as the one in charge or you know

23:15

feeling like you were the boss or the

23:17

overarching kind of waiting for me to

23:19

give the final approval on something

23:20

that we do yeah yeah yeah because that’s

23:22

always how i’ve worked as well i’ve

23:23

always gone to my boss and gone approved

23:25

not approved whatever when probably i

23:28

didn’t even necessarily need to do that

23:30

so

23:31

at this stage of the game when we’re

23:32

talking to sally in that interview but

23:35

certainly now as well you know i’d never

23:36

be happy to return to what was business

23:38

as usual you know living in that same

23:40

autopilot way of relating then walking

23:43

away and feeling privately undervalued

23:46

and that i wasn’t an equal in my

23:47

relationships whether it was family or

23:49

friends or business partners i think

23:51

this part of the interview with sally

23:53

really speaks to what you’re talking

23:54

about

23:55

i kind of feel also maybe i’ve done

23:57

myself a disservice by towing the line

23:59

for all of those years and not standing

24:00

up for who i actually am i think there’s

24:02

mixed thoughts there i mean hindsight’s

24:04

a wonderful thing and we can only keep

24:07

growing ourselves i think that that’s

24:09

the responsibility we have to ourselves

24:11

as an individual and then to each other

24:13

i’m going to leap into something that’s

24:15

been a bit of a pep topic lately and

24:17

that’s about leadership you know to me

24:20

leadership is about strengthening i’m

24:22

going to be bold and try to define it

24:24

leadership is about strengthening other

24:26

people but we can only do more of that

24:29

and do it more effectively when we

24:30

strengthen ourselves and that means

24:32

growing ourselves and i’m learning

24:34

things and i’m still doing it

24:37

so it’s funny how you said that at the

24:39

time we spoke to sally originally you

24:41

were kind of referring to me for the

24:43

decisions and letting me take the lead

24:45

on things because that was that old

24:47

dynamic that we had in place that old

24:48

boss employee dynamic because actually

24:51

when it came to talking to sally um for

24:53

the first time i don’t know if you

24:54

noticed this in the interview but i

24:57

let you run most of the first i suppose

25:00

first 20 minutes or so of the interview

25:02

because i was at a place where i wasn’t

25:05

really ready to claim ownership of parts

25:08

of myself

25:10

which i pointed out afterwards when we

25:11

heard the interview back and i went

25:14

that’s interesting that was an

25:16

interesting way to phrase that what did

25:17

you mean by that well look after

25:20

okay after we were speaking to sally for

25:22

i think it was probably about maybe 15

25:24

or 20 minutes and sally is

25:26

lovely and an absolute riot of a person

25:29

and she has a way of making you feel

25:31

very comfortable i think the

25:33

conversation got very deep and personal

25:35

and it was the first time in any

25:37

interview that i told someone

25:40

this

25:42

i often talk about like this idea of

25:44

comp head because i feel like i’m a late

25:47

blooming identifying as not straight and

25:49

that’s because of like that wasn’t it’s

25:51

just you know wasn’t a thing you know i

25:54

if if there’s an attraction to men then

25:56

i must be straight until you look at it

25:58

and go well what about all the other

26:00

things that you’re not admitting or

26:02

talking about and those are internal

26:04

biases that i had you know i i think in

26:07

my early uh 20s i probably would have

26:09

said oh i’m very straight but also in

26:11

the same sentence said

26:13

but i don’t really find men all that

26:14

attractive and women are far more

26:16

far more attractive um but that’s just

26:19

do you get what i mean sally yeah yeah

26:22

look we have these emotions that take

26:24

deep roots and as i say then they’re

26:26

buried under that top layer of coming

26:29

out in the first place and then we’ve

26:31

all got stuff as a person i suppose that

26:34

combines in with it as well and if you

26:36

if a person is a heterosexual cisgender

26:38

etc then

26:40

maybe they don’t think to tackle it but

26:42

i know for me i found that once i sort

26:44

of started going down the rabbit hole

26:47

sometimes i didn’t really want to keep

26:49

going but i suppose i did but it is

26:51

about wanting to learn and taking

26:53

responsibility and

26:55

having the willingness and ability to to

26:58

face these things and some of those

27:00

things as i say can be too strong to

27:03

face that’s not easy and so that we can

27:05

remain blocked

27:07

and that was something that really it

27:09

wasn’t comfortable for me that’s why i

27:11

stuttered all over that and you so

27:14

kindly made fun of me for it after

27:16

[Laughter]

27:17

well you know i mean it’s easy for me

27:20

isn’t it you know i’ve been like coming

27:22

out for 26 years you’ve been a late

27:23

blooming identifying as not straight for

27:25

26 years

27:28

kind of not the same flavor as you

27:31

certainly but yes

27:34

do you know

27:35

okay

27:36

when we started working together like

27:41

[Music]

27:43

when we started working together for the

27:45

second incarnation back in 2021 yeah

27:48

we’re in 2022 now yeah god we’ve lost to

27:50

you somewhere um

27:52

i think really a few weeks into us

27:54

working together you said something and

27:56

i forget what it i forget what it was um

27:59

and then i said well actually um because

28:02

you had no idea that i wasn’t straight

28:04

either no i didn’t and we were talking a

28:08

lot around about what kind of groups we

28:10

could actually try and you know seek

28:13

interview sources from and what kind of

28:16

messages that we wanted to support or

28:18

not support or otherwise and then the

28:21

conversation turned at one point to you

28:24

actually coming out to me as pen and at

28:26

that point in just the the general life

28:28

thing i think maybe three or four people

28:31

knew and that was it yeah i’d i had

28:34

realized it and come to that

28:36

understanding a few years earlier um but

28:38

you know being in a heterosexual

28:40

identifying relationship at the time i

28:42

had felt that i didn’t get to claim

28:44

myself as part of you know an lgbt qaa

28:48

plus kind of community as long as i’m

28:51

presenting in a heterosexual

28:52

relationship and so that was one of the

28:54

reasons why i didn’t say anything about

28:56

it

28:57

my family by the way were in the number

29:00

of people i hadn’t told i only told my

29:02

mother just before this podcast was

29:04

released in case she listened to it but

29:06

she didn’t so you know didn’t have to um

29:10

lucky

29:12

it was something that i felt really

29:14

uncomfortable saying it is though coming

29:16

out it’s never easy you know it’s

29:19

especially the first time you do it

29:20

because there is so much risk you know i

29:23

have been through coming out experiences

29:25

in all of the 26 years since i first

29:27

came out because people make an

29:30

assumption that you’re heterosexual you

29:31

know it it comes down to those moments

29:33

where in a nursing home just doing an

29:36

activity with one of the residents they

29:38

said to me have you got any kids how

29:39

many kids have you got and i said no i

29:42

don’t have any kids oh how come you know

29:44

and so the conversation goes it’s

29:46

constantly

29:48

bucking against those assumptions of

29:50

society that you’re a certain gender

29:52

you’re a certain age therefore one plus

29:55

one equals two and

29:57

humanity’s not like that um so it’s not

30:00

easy 2017. i should um do i need a

30:02

double harp for this i don’t i think so

30:04

i think you need harp with a little

30:06

squeak from harpo at the end

30:10

we’re gonna have to produce that later

30:11

we’re gonna have to produce that later

30:12

um

30:13

it’s a har papo

30:15

2017 uh marriage equality survey

30:18

traumatizing for good lord yes the

30:20

lgbtqia plus community um because again

30:24

somebody’s human rights their their

30:26

right to just even exist as a person is

30:29

up for debate um everyone’s got an

30:31

opinion and everyone wants to tell you

30:32

to it yes and whether they agree with it

30:34

or not whether it has anything to do

30:36

with them or not yeah great thanks for

30:38

sharing your opinion um go away um that

30:41

for me at that time uh before that i

30:44

probably would have told you i

30:45

identified as straight and i probably

30:47

would have believed that about myself

30:49

except then when the marriage equality

30:51

survey came about i was really angry and

30:55

i was really hurt i was really upset by

30:58

the fact that you know

31:00

not just from a human rights point of

31:02

view but

31:03

the the persecution of

31:05

that community i had to ask myself why

31:08

was i so passionate and um affected by

31:12

that and it’s also very difficult if

31:14

you’re feeling confusion at the very

31:16

least to then you know put yourself out

31:19

there as even an ally because then that

31:22

would turn the headlights straight

31:24

around to you and there you are speaking

31:27

up on behalf of a group and why are you

31:28

doing that you know because people don’t

31:30

do that unless they’ve got a personal

31:32

stake in it it was the common assumption

31:34

so one of the things that i mentioned

31:36

with sally in that interview was that

31:38

the marriage equality survey was really

31:40

the first time that i mentioned i

31:43

suppose you know mainstream lgbtqia

31:46

issues on commercial radio um and i felt

31:49

uncomfortable doing that even on on the

31:52

morning that they were announcing the

31:54

results it was you know it was just

31:56

before or just after 9am there was

31:58

scheduled to come at 9am and i’m sitting

32:00

there in my studio and i’m um watching

32:02

and waiting and my first break goes to

32:04

air and it’s like i think i said

32:06

something along the lines of whatever

32:07

happens this morning um with the results

32:10

i just you know want the

32:13

plus community listening to know that i

32:16

hear you when i’m here for you or

32:17

something like that i will say so that

32:19

morning i i said that in the first break

32:21

i basically said you know

32:23

the community has my support um i hope

32:25

this turns out for us today um the

32:28

proverbial us which is not really

32:30

implicating anybody it’s the kind of

32:33

you know no one no one who straight

32:35

notices the proverbial us and then the

32:37

results came through and so like five

32:38

minutes later you know um they did the

32:41

good news about the results and blah

32:43

blah blah blah blah then that morning

32:45

not not very long after that i said to

32:47

someone in the building and i i don’t i

32:50

don’t want to i don’t want to out them

32:52

in a non you know out way but i did say

32:55

how wonderful is that this morning that

32:58

the survey came through like that and

33:00

the majority of people support marriage

33:03

equality and they said back to me it’s

33:05

good to see democracy works

33:09

and that’s when i realized that that

33:11

person didn’t feel the same way i felt

33:13

about it

33:14

[Music]

33:17

thank you it is good democracy works

33:19

they obviously made a difference

33:21

selection on the survey form then i did

33:24

they said it’s good to see democracy

33:26

works

33:29

um

33:33

look you know

33:34

going back to what joe fergus said to us

33:36

back in episode five i think the danger

33:38

of howling people down and saying they

33:41

can’t have a different opinion is that

33:43

they’ll just not vocalize it but they’ll

33:44

still think it yeah yeah and that’s what

33:46

i felt so long as they don’t come at me

33:48

with their shitty opinions and try to

33:50

make me feel bad with their opinions i’m

33:53

happy for someone to think whatever they

33:55

like about me but as soon as they start

33:57

to attack me just like i wouldn’t attack

33:59

anybody with my opinion that whole thing

34:01

of live and let live i think is

34:02

something that we’ve really forgotten i

34:04

think the other part of that though is

34:06

that you know people say don’t polarize

34:08

anything don’t rock the boat like if

34:10

you’re in in media you know you don’t

34:11

get people offside don’t alienate your

34:14

listeners because if what was the number

34:16

in the end 56 of australians support

34:18

marriage equality well there’s still 44

34:20

that don’t and they’re still listeners

34:22

as well but

34:24

it’s so much of a bigger question of who

34:26

do you want to be and what do you want

34:27

to stand for and to get 100 of the

34:30

people all the time you’d have to agree

34:31

to some pretty terrible to whoever

34:34

is listening and it’s not necessarily in

34:36

line with your beliefs and your values

34:38

and that’s i think where the importance

34:39

of being able to to live and you know

34:42

express your own values is important too

34:44

because

34:45

why should anybody settle for something

34:47

that is less than what they expect for

34:50

themselves you know like there’s

34:52

probably a more eloquent way to put it

34:53

i’m not saying that go out and vilify

34:56

people who are different to you that’s

34:58

completely the opposite to what i’m

35:00

saying what i’m saying is that nobody if

35:02

they feel a certain way should feel that

35:04

they have to just accept somebody else’s

35:06

words or deeds and feel like they have

35:08

to keep the peace by saying nothing in

35:10

defense of themselves

35:12

because i’ve been in that situation

35:14

plenty of times myself and it’s not a

35:16

great place it’s not somewhere that you

35:18

want to be and you know there are plenty

35:20

of people with lots of different causes

35:22

going on at the moment and you know i

35:24

can specify you know like things like

35:26

these freedom marches for example that

35:28

are happening at the moment where

35:29

legitimately people are feeling upset by

35:32

actions or inaction in certain ways from

35:35

different groups like they

35:37

have been let down you know in one way

35:39

or another and

35:41

it’s a very common feeling generally

35:43

across the population but to then go to

35:46

the extreme and say

35:48

string them up or

35:50

you know whatever insert violent action

35:52

here and then polarize different groups

35:54

against each other because they’re

35:56

getting more than us or whatever it just

35:57

it’s got to stop you know because we

36:00

shouldn’t be in a position where people

36:01

are being prioritized over another

36:04

because of a difference or perceived

36:07

difference or being told that it’s like

36:09

that whole reverse racism argument which

36:12

is complete we’ve had this

36:14

conversation about quotas and things

36:16

before

36:17

until we get equity we can’t have

36:18

equality correct one of the things i

36:21

always say and i’ve said this to you

36:22

before i don’t know if i’ve said it in

36:23

the show

36:25

but it’s kind of at the basis for

36:26

reframe of mind just in general is that

36:30

i do not believe that anybody who feels

36:32

their own personal value ever wants to

36:35

take value away from anybody else and if

36:38

you feel your own self-love then you

36:41

don’t hate on anybody i think the weight

36:43

of the world being a better place is to

36:46

teach people to help them empower

36:48

themselves to love themselves to see

36:50

their value to work on their own

36:53

feelings and emotions and to claim

36:55

ownership of that because if you if you

36:57

value yourself you you don’t need to

36:59

other anybody else you you don’t need to

37:01

compete with anybody else you can

37:03

support other people i just don’t think

37:05

you can feel hate and love at the same

37:07

time so if we can teach people to find a

37:10

way to love themselves then there’s

37:12

going to be a whole lot less hate yeah

37:14

and i completely agree and also i want

37:16

to add to that you know like phrases

37:18

like that can very easily be you know

37:20

laughed at or turned into a laughing

37:22

point of oh you know you’re just being a

37:23

hippie you’re just being piece of love

37:25

and all that kind of

37:27

no like there is actually

37:29

great value in valuing yourself because

37:32

when you value yourself you don’t feel

37:35

like you have to act in certain ways to

37:37

get something and when we come from a

37:40

place of lack and we come from a place

37:41

of competition and come from a place of

37:44

they’ve got more than me then that only

37:47

breeds hatred so

37:48

if we can bring ourselves to a place

37:50

where we value ourselves and know that

37:52

you know what we are doing is ethical

37:55

and is responsible and is actually in

37:57

support of people and support of the

37:59

greater good for one of the term then

38:01

that’s the point i think we can actually

38:03

be satisfied with what we’ve got and

38:05

it’s not a case of just be grateful for

38:06

what you’ve got you know we don’t want

38:08

to kind of set up this whole it’s not

38:09

we’re not toxic positivity in this

38:11

either no no no exactly but we have to

38:13

come to a point where we do value

38:15

ourselves to the point where we know

38:17

that we are good enough that we know

38:18

that we are capable that we know that we

38:20

can learn something if we don’t know it

38:22

and to stop dumping on ourselves and

38:23

when we stop dumping on ourselves we

38:25

stop dumping on other people so in all

38:27

those years of working in commercial

38:29

radio you did

38:30

you mention that you’re related to

38:32

yourself as being heterosexual even back

38:34

when marriage equality was being

38:38

debated and that’s being generous in my

38:40

terminals yeah

38:41

did you feel at any point before that

38:43

though thinking back now you’ve got the

38:44

safety of hindsight and the safety to be

38:46

able to say actually there’s a point

38:48

where i might have been attracted to the

38:49

same sex did you ever feel moments of

38:52

that that you can remember yeah and in

38:54

hindsight now that’s

38:56

not something that i ever felt like i

38:59

could own while i was working in

39:01

commercial radio and i know that it’s

39:03

not about any individual in any way

39:05

you’ve worked because yeah i think in a

39:07

lot of places industries society there

39:11

is this underlying homophobia still that

39:13

you know we’ve seen a recent debate with

39:16

transphobia at its edge

39:18

so all of those things are still

39:20

bubbling underneath maybe this bit of

39:22

the interview with sally explains this

39:23

well

39:24

that starts from the top too like i

39:26

think of my experiences like having

39:28

worked in commercial media for 20 plus

39:31

years the the people who

39:32

the employees the people who are there

39:34

we want to make change a lot of us do we

39:37

want to

39:38

um you know we we want to tell diverse

39:40

stories but the pressure comes from

39:42

further up the chain of you know that

39:44

doesn’t relate to your average listener

39:46

your average demographic who we’re after

39:48

and there’s a lot of black and white in

39:50

that but in that same vein as well

39:52

though you know we used to have things

39:54

like diversity and inclusion studies

39:56

anonymously come out every year and

39:58

every year i’d answer well where are all

40:00

the people of color in this office

40:01

because in the whole time i’ve been

40:03

there i could only see two is that

40:05

really you know tick boxes

40:07

how many people do i publicly know that

40:10

identify

40:11

you know on the lgbtiq a plus scale

40:14

because again there was probably only

40:15

three but statistically there would have

40:18

been a lot more people myself included

40:21

as kind of a closet pansexual at the

40:23

time that didn’t feel comfortable

40:25

sharing that and therefore probably you

40:28

know because that culture from the top

40:30

is

40:30

even if it is of uh yes we’re we’ve got

40:34

to float in mardi gras so we must be

40:36

inclusive um

40:40

yeah but uh

40:41

don’t don’t speak about it don’t talk

40:43

about it

40:44

so it’s 2017 and the marriage equality

40:46

debate to use the term very generously

40:49

is is happening and there are plenty of

40:52

media identities who have same-sex

40:55

partners who even have children so what

40:57

made it different for you it wasn’t like

40:58

one person specifically ever said don’t

41:01

be gay you can’t be gay i mean it wasn’t

41:04

you’re right there were other people who

41:07

were out um quite a lot of other people

41:09

who were out something i find really

41:10

interesting is you know i make fun of

41:13

the alpha douche as being that um

41:15

cisgendered straight white middle-aged

41:17

man who’s in charge of things but you

41:19

know in the radio industry there are

41:20

actually middle-aged white men who

41:23

aren’t straight in charge of things what

41:25

perpetuates or what makes me feel like

41:27

that culture of not being gay is not

41:29

allowed when people who are you know gay

41:32

are in charge i think that someone’s

41:34

sexuality doesn’t mean that they’re an

41:38

ally to their group just because someone

41:40

is gay doesn’t mean that they protect

41:44

other members of the gay community i can

41:47

certainly certainly attest to that

41:49

different parts of the the rainbow

41:51

community as we kind of yeah

41:53

now yeah when people when there’s not a

41:55

lot of people from a particular group or

41:58

minority who succeed in something it’s

42:02

similar to what we were talking about

42:03

with suzanne that time where she said

42:06

that a lot of women who make it to

42:07

positions of power feel like they have

42:09

to be men in skirts and bust some balls

42:11

and act in that same kind of alpha

42:13

douchey way

42:14

i think that people when they’re from

42:16

marginalized groups sometimes get into a

42:18

position of power through their own

42:20

tenacity and um through the compromises

42:24

that they’ve had to make about

42:26

themselves

42:27

and their beliefs on the way to be able

42:29

to fit into that more mainstream mold

42:31

that when they do get into a position of

42:33

power they don’t use that power to

42:36

amplify or help the other people in

42:39

their community along the way they are

42:41

worried about keeping their power and so

42:44

they also other people maybe in less

42:46

overt ways or not even that they

42:49

contribute to the culture and make the

42:51

culture worse but they don’t try and

42:53

change the culture even when they get

42:55

into a position of power it’s dangerous

42:57

for them to challenge that because they

42:58

are in the minority and yes

43:01

one vocal voice is seen as

43:04

an activist and someone who’s dangerous

43:06

and someone who will change things for

43:08

the worse you know like i remember

43:10

actually when i started in darwin

43:15

sure

43:16

okay

43:18

it’s almost a double heart moment

43:19

because we’re going back not just

43:22

no not just 12 months but 12 years

43:27

exactly this is a 12 year jump not a 12

43:29

month jump so

43:31

when we first met you knew that i was

43:32

gay you know i was at the point in my

43:35

journey of life where i i was out i

43:38

wasn’t hiding it anybody who asked i

43:40

willingly told i didn’t go out you know

43:42

announcing it from the rooftops or

43:44

anything because i didn’t climb steps

43:46

that well i still don’t and that’s only

43:48

because i’m lazy it’s not a gay

43:49

stereotype gays don’t climb steps no not

43:51

at all i’m not trying to be able at

43:53

either so i um oh yeah i arrived and i

43:57

was going on shift onto the drive

43:59

program and i was you know i started to

44:00

toss around a few ideas for things like

44:02

it could be fun and

44:04

um

44:05

i know what you’re going to say and i

44:06

know it’s not going to paint me in a

44:07

very good light so i’d like to preface

44:09

it

44:11

i’d like to preface it with um

44:14

i was 26 when we had this conversation i

44:17

think yes you were 26 and also it harks

44:20

back to you know a possible unconscious

44:23

desire to be the man in the skirt or the

44:26

meat oh yes

44:29

the previous episodes that i’ve done

44:31

things in the past that would be

44:32

considered the ball busting man in the

44:34

skirt thing and i think you’re about to

44:36

discuss one of the things that i have

44:38

said you were nasty i’ve got to say that

44:41

you would you’ve never been nasty but

44:43

my criticism is polite you know and

44:45

through the conversation it became

44:47

apparent that you were telling me that

44:48

it wasn’t a good idea to be gay on air

44:51

that the station

44:52

because of its listenership because of

44:54

the target demographic didn’t have space

44:57

for a gay personality on there because

45:00

it didn’t fit the branding of the

45:01

station i took it because you know if 12

45:05

months ago i was in a place where i

45:06

wasn’t actually

45:08

saying what was important to me in

45:09

standing up for it i certainly wasn’t

45:11

going to do it 12 years ago when i was

45:13

in my first commercial radio gig so i

45:15

swallowed it

45:16

because if i was 26 year old louise you

45:18

were 36 year old andy at this point too

45:20

yeah yeah that’s right yeah exactly we

45:22

were both spring chickens back then

45:24

we were in a different place of our

45:26

journey i was exceptionally grateful to

45:28

have been given the opportunity to be on

45:30

air in such a great market on commercial

45:33

radios so what you said was correct

45:35

because we had a listening audience that

45:37

we needed to to cater to and going by

45:40

the demographic and the target of that

45:42

audience they were likely to hold

45:44

certain beliefs or certain values and

45:46

those values really only extended out as

45:49

far as we would be in the feel-good

45:51

stations so having a big gay bow

45:54

in the little brain i never said that

45:57

gabo by the way

45:59

before before the daily mail picks up an

46:01

article saying a former former radio

46:04

host called co-host gabo

46:07

yeah yeah i’m taking license here but

46:09

but the longer the sure it is you know

46:11

to have an over the top stereotypical

46:14

gay personality

46:16

which i was which i’ve never been anyway

46:18

but that’s beside the point but i that

46:21

it wouldn’t have fitted the sound of the

46:23

station overall so i’m sure this happens

46:26

with any radio announcer because they

46:28

have to think about their demographic

46:30

and who they’re actually talking to but

46:32

there are certain elements of their

46:33

personality that you just won’t hear um

46:36

because the advertisers will pull their

46:38

money if it goes against their values

46:40

that’s for sure yeah i’ve i’ve said this

46:42

to you before in a non-recorded podcast

46:44

conversation but i am sorry that i ever

46:46

did that oh i know um we will pass that

46:52

we’re in business together now honey i’m

46:54

sorry that i did a lot of things to a

46:55

lot of people that uh you know that

46:57

again 26 year old louise did because she

46:59

felt like she had to prove something

47:01

because i think when i talk about that

47:03

person um that that reaches the top and

47:06

then doesn’t support the other people

47:07

from their own community like that would

47:09

have been me then

47:10

i’m talking about what would this have

47:12

been 2008 2009 but also like how are you

47:16

supposed to have that kind of wisdom at

47:18

26 years of age well some people’s

47:20

ability some people are smart i guess

47:22

somebody okay people who didn’t repress

47:25

their sexuality for 40 years

47:27

might have yeah but without dumping on

47:29

yourself though like if the culture

47:31

itself was such that you know it didn’t

47:33

expect you to uphold that value would

47:35

you be upholding it you know like and

47:38

not coming to individuals again but if

47:40

through a whole industry this whole

47:43

sense can kind of trickle down that well

47:45

the most important thing is that we only

47:47

speak to people with this value this

47:49

value and this value and we don’t

47:51

mention this other stuff because that’s

47:52

just too hard i want to add as well that

47:55

came from a place of actually feeling

47:57

like i was trying to protect you i

47:59

didn’t want you to get attacked and i

48:01

wanted you to be successful and i had

48:04

already had several years of experience

48:07

knowing how much more difficult that

48:08

would be

48:09

if you were the gay bow um

48:12

because it’s got a limited life span

48:14

that kind of personality in that kind of

48:17

and also not wanting you to become a

48:19

stereotype and a um

48:22

like a token woman but you’re the token

48:24

gay and the only thing you can ever

48:25

comment on is reality tv and go oh my

48:28

god yes go kim go you know you know like

48:31

it’s

48:32

it doesn’t value you as a person um

48:34

correct and in 2009 as i’m now told at

48:38

2009

48:40

like forget 2022 we live in an entirely

48:44

different time now um oh yeah 2009 this

48:48

was like i think even just as the first

48:50

iphone was coming out right um yeah it

48:52

was the attitudes around in 2009

48:56

regarding the expectations of the lgbt

49:00

iqa plus community and the only gay we

49:03

saw really represented on tv was the

49:06

will and grace gay yeah it was it was

49:08

still there in my mind it wasn’t because

49:10

you know i kind of knew what went before

49:13

me people say that we we stand on on the

49:15

shoulders of giants and certainly you

49:18

know from what i’d learned when i came

49:20

out and through the people i’d met after

49:22

coming out i knew what had gone before

49:24

me as far as all of the activism and all

49:26

of the protests and all of the

49:28

hatred that had been sort of slung at my

49:30

community my community up until

49:33

well it still does still does to be

49:35

honest

49:36

like to me i didn’t have the sense of

49:37

that and actually it was a very good

49:39

thing for you to be able to be there and

49:42

protect me in that way because had i

49:44

gone on with

49:46

a sense that people will accept me for

49:49

whoever i am anyway it’s still

49:51

it that’s still not so you know people

49:54

will still try to tell me that i’m not

49:58

good enough for one reason or another

50:00

some people will still even ask me which

50:02

one’s the man in our relationship or

50:04

which one is the woman in one of the

50:05

questions i phrased to sally when we

50:08

heard it back we went oh

50:09

that sounds a bit off but but i stand by

50:12

it you know i think that in a lot of

50:13

these arguments a lot of these news

50:15

stories we hear a lot of the commentary

50:16

we hear the people who are most

50:18

self-righteous are so obsessed with what

50:20

people do in the bedroom and they are so

50:22

obsessed with what people have got

50:24

between their legs and what they do with

50:26

them it is just the most hypocritical

50:29

position that i can think of for people

50:32

to have those sorts of points of view

50:35

and then try and turn it around to say

50:37

that the other people are the deviants

50:39

when they’re just minding their own

50:40

business trying to live their life like

50:41

anybody else and to love someone their

50:45

way in a consensual way in a loving way

50:48

to be told no you’re wrong like we’re

50:50

talking very specifically about media

50:52

and we’re now talking about media in

50:53

2009 um i’m trying to get across that

50:57

this is something that is happening from

50:58

our background it may not be about an

51:01

industry that everybody can relate to

51:03

but this is happening in so many

51:06

industries yeah yeah there is that

51:09

covert feeling that it’s not okay to be

51:11

you in whatever way you know whether

51:13

that’s

51:14

sexuality whether it’s culture whether

51:16

it’s

51:17

disability

51:18

you know if there is a sense that you

51:20

cannot be your whole self in whatever

51:23

way that means then

51:25

people don’t feel comfortable

51:27

challenging that status quo in an

51:29

environment where they are already a

51:31

minority figure there was no way that i

51:33

was going to say to my boss because you

51:36

were my boss and you had a boss above

51:38

you so i wasn’t certainly wasn’t going

51:39

to say it to them

51:41

but i was not going to walk in there and

51:42

say well look i’m gay just deal with it

51:44

i’m going to say what i like because

51:46

you know i came in accepting certain

51:47

rules as well i came into a new job and

51:50

i was learning the ropes in the new

51:51

industry for me and i wanted to do the

51:54

very best i could and i had to respect

51:55

certain rules because really you know

51:58

and this also comes back to what would i

52:00

know but realistically what did i know

52:02

at that point about commercial radio and

52:04

how it worked and how audiences and

52:06

branding and marketing around all those

52:08

sorts of things happened so

52:10

of course i was going to toe the line of

52:11

course i wasn’t going to be

52:14

anything larger than what was required

52:17

and that’s my choice

52:18

that was my choice

52:20

i could have gone no that and moved

52:22

back to sydney but i didn’t and we make

52:24

these choices to compromise ourselves

52:25

because

52:26

we care i think sometimes we care so

52:28

much more about the thing that we’re

52:30

doing and what that means to us than

52:32

about the our own values

52:34

um and that’s something we have to kind

52:36

of come to ourselves another aside i

52:40

once had a intern lovely person and they

52:43

really really really wanted to get into

52:46

radio and then they did i gave them a

52:48

great reference and i gave them as much

52:50

experience as i could give them they

52:52

ended up getting a job in regional radio

52:54

and they called me up crying because

52:57

their probation area period wasn’t

52:58

extended so they weren’t fired but it

53:01

was because unlike you they didn’t toe

53:03

the line and they were openly gay yeah

53:06

they didn’t fit the sound of the station

53:09

yeah which is a real shitty thing you

53:12

know

53:12

like i i don’t know like i’ve got a very

53:15

different kind of perspective on it now

53:17

and

53:18

any advertiser that came to me and said

53:20

well we’re gonna pull our dollars from

53:22

you because you are gay or whatever i

53:24

would say well take your money i

53:26

don’t care i don’t want it because

53:27

you’re not important to me and by the

53:28

way neither is your products there are

53:30

plenty of others out there that i can

53:31

get which are different because i don’t

53:33

need your bigotry behind your dollars

53:36

and i suppose this conversation about

53:38

culture isn’t just about gayness i at

53:41

some point found myself in these jobs

53:43

protecting people

53:45

for expressing their own opinions when

53:47

you you say that thing about you know

53:49

i’ll take my advertising dollars

53:50

elsewhere well

53:51

i i had to many times stand up and say

53:54

no that like advertising dollars doesn’t

53:57

um control editorial content there have

54:00

been things in the past where you know

54:02

i’ve ended up in arguments with people

54:04

um

54:05

higher than myself because

54:08

advertisers haven’t necessarily been

54:10

happy that let’s say a hypothetical

54:13

scandal happened and it involved a large

54:16

company

54:17

not doing the right thing and then it

54:20

was reported on in the news it was also

54:23

discussed by the hosts of say you know

54:25

one of the shows i i had was asked

54:28

sometimes to bury stories don’t run

54:30

those stories because

54:33

they’re a client i can specifically

54:35

remember having that for some other

54:38

content makers who had made some

54:40

comments not untruthful not defamatory

54:43

nothing like that but had made some

54:44

personal comments about what they

54:46

thought of a situation that was topical

54:48

but because it was about an advertiser

54:50

the advertiser wanted an apology they

54:52

want to basically say we’re going to

54:54

pull our money if you don’t put us in a

54:56

positive light we will do whatever the

54:58

hell we like and

55:00

expect you not to pass negative comments

55:02

about it there’s a couple more stories i

55:04

want to add before we move on to the

55:05

next part of this andy if that’s okay

55:07

with you

55:08

these are stories aimed at

55:10

a generalization of what media culture

55:13

is like slash was like i don’t know

55:15

haven’t been in it for two years i can

55:17

only go by my past experience and how

55:19

this culture is probably similar in and

55:22

most likely similar in other industries

55:24

so one x amount of years prior before

55:27

the marriage equality survey i had a

55:30

heated debate with somebody who was in

55:32

charge about marriage equality they were

55:35

adamant that marriage should only be

55:38

between a man and a woman and anything

55:40

else was

55:41

disgusting and i was very heated in my

55:44

response to that and advocating for

55:47

equality it was not a fun argument and

55:49

it completely changed the way i looked

55:50

at that person because up until that

55:52

point i you know i really respected them

55:53

but so fast forward to 2017 that same

55:57

person popped on their social media and

55:59

said

56:00

i support marriage equality and if you

56:02

don’t then get the off my page and

56:06

what yeah well obviously someone had a

56:08

change of heart over that period and

56:10

it’s great they had a change of heart

56:11

but i would have loved to have heard the

56:13

story about how you went from arguing

56:14

with me about same sex marriage being a

56:16

sin to get the off my page because

56:18

that story of growth would have been

56:20

much more convincing to people who

56:22

haven’t yet come around that than just

56:24

off my page

56:25

um yeah yeah completely especially

56:28

saying that was a real formative thing

56:29

for me x amount of years prior when they

56:32

were someone who was in charge of a lot

56:35

of things and they had such strong views

56:37

against homosexuality but you know what

56:40

maybe in some ways you were the catalyst

56:42

for them to start thinking about that

56:44

because

56:45

you know i think about some of the

56:46

conversations i have even recently with

56:48

some people about different things and i

56:50

never go in wanting to convince somebody

56:52

to change their minds necessarily you

56:54

know i’ll try and give them my

56:56

perspective and why i think a certain

56:57

way and i’m always open to changing my

56:59

mind as well but i i guess when i feel

57:02

passionately about something and i still

57:04

can’t convince someone of my perspective

57:07

then

57:08

there comes a point which i’m sure you

57:10

did as well there’s a point where you

57:11

have to walk away yeah it’s exasperating

57:15

yeah but perhaps that point that you’ve

57:17

made causes them to actually when things

57:19

have cooled down to think okay well

57:21

obviously they’re being passionate about

57:23

this for a reason maybe there’s

57:25

something i can read to find out why

57:27

it’s like when we were talking to

57:28

jacinta carboon about the impact of

57:30

inequality in the workplace for women

57:32

and in society in the broader scale for

57:35

women

57:36

and how she had to take that person on a

57:39

journey it was a man we can say it was a

57:40

man because she said it was a man she

57:41

had to take one of her male colleagues

57:43

on a journey and say okay so

57:46

are you okay with

57:48

your daughter earning half as much or

57:50

you know a percentage of what female

57:52

counterpart earns up with the same

57:54

qualifications or we shouldn’t have to

57:56

ask jenny if it’s okay though like no we

57:59

shouldn’t have to check with jenny first

58:01

honestly no we shouldn’t by any means

58:03

not by a long shot sometimes we have to

58:05

use whatever means we can know to wake

58:07

people up to the fact that what they’re

58:09

saying isn’t necessarily fully thought

58:11

out so the conversation we had with

58:13

sally last episode is so important to me

58:16

because sally’s a trans woman and not

58:18

because she’s a trans woman but because

58:20

she’s talking about diversity inclusion

58:22

now still these stories that we’re

58:24

sharing uh you know from a long time ago

58:27

um

58:28

it’s it’s still going on could you

58:29

imagine with all of this stuff

58:32

we’ve been talking about here that

58:33

happened in 2009 for us and

58:36

don’t be gay in 2009 i could have never

58:39

employed a trans person could you

58:41

imagine i did employ a trans person

58:44

after i left

58:45

darwin in the position i was in and

58:48

there’s really not much to say about

58:50

that because they’re a person

58:52

they’re a person and they did a great

58:54

job and they brought amazing skills to

58:57

the job that i employed them for but

58:58

geez did i see some bigotry around the

59:01

ranks even to the point of one of the

59:04

people

59:05

that actually

59:06

also worked for

59:08

the station dead naming that person

59:11

because they’d known them before they

59:13

transitioned and

59:15

yeah

59:16

you know like that’s 12 years ago now um

59:20

it still happens though i’m not just

59:21

talking about trans issues or gay issues

59:25

racism yeah you know yeah there are some

59:27

awful things being said about aboriginal

59:30

and torres strait islander people there

59:32

are terrible things about migrants or

59:35

whatever label we want to kind of bring

59:37

down to someone like a refugee who’s

59:39

been locked up for nine years there’s

59:41

all sorts of stuff going on

59:43

still and i wonder if we will ever wake

59:46

up whether we’ll ever reach that kind of

59:49

you know let the sunshine in moment that

59:51

they had in the 60s apparently

59:54

obviously i thought well that looks good

59:55

and i came back down into this lifetime

59:57

and

59:58

60:01

it was a lie it was a lie

60:03

[Laughter]

60:05

26 year old louise i think became maybe

60:08

28 year old louise

60:10

or 29 year old louise however old she

60:12

was um and i could not do that anymore i

60:16

hadn’t until we started our own business

60:18

and i suppose it’s easy to call

60:20

ourselves leaders when there’s only two

60:22

of us and our studio audience of felines

60:25

and we keep leading each other astray

60:26

but yeah

60:28

but you know what that last the last

60:31

time that i was a manager i couldn’t do

60:34

it anymore because i

60:37

felt like i had to protect people so

60:39

much from the culture not just the lgbt

60:43

qia plus community um no women even

60:46

people of a certain age you know they

60:48

they get bullied by other groups so

60:51

there’s all sorts of

60:53

discrimination that goes on definitely

60:55

some ageism and also the inequity of

60:58

people further up making a

61:01

lot of money a lot a lot of money and

61:04

making a lot of money off your creative

61:06

talent and then telling you that they

61:08

can’t pass that on to you and not only

61:10

can they not pass that on to you but

61:12

you’re going to get paid minimum wage

61:15

and also you need to work all those

61:17

hours for free because if you don’t do

61:20

it then somebody else will because

61:21

everybody wants this job

61:23

everybody wants and there’s not

61:25

enough opportunities so we’re going to

61:27

take your creativity and your pattern

61:29

and get everything out of that we can

61:32

for 38 grand a year you want to work 38

61:34

grand a year and work 15 hour days have

61:36

i got the job for you

61:38

that’s so glamorous you’re gonna love it

61:41

it speaks to the culture of these

61:43

industries doesn’t it because and not

61:45

just media this is not just media this

61:47

is across other industries look at how

61:50

at the moment even with

61:52

nurses you know how you’ve got

61:54

governments coming out and saying oh yes

61:56

we really appreciate all the nurses and

61:58

all they’ve done for us especially over

61:59

the last two years

62:01

pay them yeah clapping doesn’t

62:03

help a payroll i can stand in my

62:06

driveway for hours clapping all

62:08

i’m going to get is sore hands and need

62:10

a nurse pay them

62:11

put some people through training and

62:13

start putting more resources into health

62:15

care give them money you know

62:17

what clap as you give them the pay rise

62:19

well done here’s an extra you know 20

62:21

grand and then also do it for some

62:23

teachers as well yeah yeah while

62:25

you’re at it let’s make a list let’s

62:28

let’s make a list of all the people in

62:29

society who are over and it’s

62:31

everybody except the one percent in

62:33

power anyway the patriarchy

62:37

you said we weren’t going to say

62:38

the patriarchy every episode look you

62:40

know but we get ourselves to these

62:42

little states don’t we i’m in a tizzy

62:44

i’m in a tizzy and i’m not even halfway

62:46

through our run sheet here

62:48

i know i want to bring it back i just

62:50

know i want to bring it back to so that

62:52

that time where i was your boss was the

62:54

last time that i was somebody’s direct

62:56

boss like that because i left that job

62:59

feeling like i couldn’t i didn’t want to

63:01

be in charge of anyone anymore because i

63:03

was disappointing people that were below

63:05

me who i couldn’t look after and i felt

63:08

like i

63:08

i really wanted to look after them

63:10

because i saw me in them and i saw how

63:12

much they cared and i saw their passion

63:15

for what they were doing

63:17

um

63:18

but also further up the chain i saw the

63:20

exploitation of an industry and how

63:23

people would work so hard

63:26

to do what they love doing to be

63:29

rewarded in pittance

63:33

to have to hide themselves to have to

63:36

tone themselves down to be a brand for

63:40

somebody instead of their own unique

63:42

person um and that that pressure of

63:45

being in the middle was kind of you

63:48

know it is kind of little

63:50

management is no place for the

63:51

faint-hearted because you’re

63:53

disappointing people all over the place

63:55

above you below you beside you i’ve

63:57

tried to advocate up in my life as much

63:59

as i can

64:01

but there’s only so far you can advocate

64:04

up

64:05

well yeah

64:07

you know it clearly this is something

64:08

that that really sort of touches your

64:10

heart as well and

64:13

it’s touched mind and yeah i speak about

64:15

it without being able to be affected by

64:17

it probably because my response to it is

64:19

anxiety you know like when i feel like i

64:22

can’t be all that i need to be or feel

64:25

that i need to be for everybody that is

64:27

in my team or everybody

64:29

that i’m trying to impress with my

64:32

team’s performance then i get incredibly

64:34

anxious

64:35

and that’s something that i don’t want

64:37

you know that’s something that leads to

64:38

burnout it it does lead to burnout

64:42

and it did lead to burnout um for me a

64:46

lot of times actually i i wonder now if

64:49

some of the episodes i had called

64:51

depressive episodes of burnout

64:54

look you know and i think you know

64:56

just as much as anybody else in in

64:58

whatever they’re doing

65:00

sometimes we become a product of the

65:02

industry that we’re in you know but

65:04

you’ve found a way out of that yeah

65:07

at that point all that time ago where i

65:09

decided i wasn’t going to be a manager

65:11

anymore

65:12

i thought

65:14

i really want to be a radio announcer

65:16

and create and i love

65:19

the radio

65:21

um and

65:22

if i can just do it for myself

65:25

and not have to be in charge of anybody

65:27

then i can weather that on my own do you

65:30

know what i mean i can

65:32

because when i left darwin i

65:35

didn’t have another job lined up and i

65:37

just could not do it anymore and i

65:40

actually thought at that time

65:41

is this it is this where

65:44

there’s no more career for me because i

65:46

felt that at that time is this the end

65:48

of my radio career because you don’t

65:51

leave a job in radio without having

65:52

another one lined up because anyone will

65:54

tell you very quickly that you shouldn’t

65:55

even go on holidays because when you

65:57

come back someone’s going to take your

65:59

job which

66:00

as we discussed in a previous episode

66:02

they did

66:03

so

66:06

that happened um

66:08

and and so at that point i thought we

66:10

know

66:10

that might be the end of that am i okay

66:12

with that and

66:14

i wasn’t but i did it because i could

66:17

couldn’t do the alternative um and in

66:20

that case i didn’t burn any bridges or

66:22

explode them on the way out so it just

66:24

still collected the kerosene honey

66:26

[Laughter]

66:28

i was still building up the kerosene

66:31

so i you know it wasn’t that long before

66:33

i had people calling me up asking me if

66:35

i’d come work for them so i think

66:38

i was un unemployed at that stage for

66:41

like it was three months and i really

66:42

ended up just taking a holiday in

66:44

between jobs is what it kind of became

66:46

but i did decide that continuing in the

66:48

industry i wouldn’t be a manager because

66:52

of those things and if i just

66:54

i can just put all my resources into

66:58

making me the best version of me

67:00

so that i can use my power and influence

67:04

to help other people and in the best way

67:07

that i can do it and that will be enough

67:09

and i

67:10

i know the culture of what i’m in and i

67:14

understand what they’re like and if i

67:16

can just

67:17

play by enough rules

67:19

that i can be successful and get to the

67:22

top maybe i can create change or

67:25

find a way to just

67:27

deal with it because also this is the

67:29

only thing that i thought i wanted to do

67:31

at that point

67:33

and i had

67:34

if we go back to episode three tied my

67:37

entire identity to being a radio person

67:42

it was my salvation for depression for

67:45

you know

67:45

those suicidal ideations on the floor of

67:48

the shower

67:49

so

67:51

i don’t know what i’m getting at anymore

67:54

well i think you know what what’s

67:55

essentially happened is that

67:57

for one

67:59

of a better term you were kind of beaten

68:01

by a system you know like you

68:04

you

68:05

did your very best to bring

68:07

the best of yourself into the role that

68:09

you got

68:10

yet you still had those other

68:12

expectations to meet which went against

68:14

your values yeah

68:16

and so

68:18

at that point when you stepped out of

68:19

that you were saying essentially look

68:23

it’s a big bit of my identity

68:24

but jesus christ this doesn’t actually

68:26

make me happy in the slightest because

68:29

it’s not actually aligning with anything

68:31

that’s important to me or maybe not

68:32

that’s probably a little bit dramatic

68:34

because i’m a gay boy but but you know

68:36

it’s not aligning completely with my

68:38

values so i need to get out it’s not

68:41

aligning enough and if it’s not aligning

68:43

enough and someone else won’t come to

68:45

the party of helping it align

68:49

then what else is there yeah which

68:53

clearly i’m traumatized

68:55

yeah and we’ll say get some perspective

68:58

until we talk about these things and we

68:59

wouldn’t have so much drama because this

69:02

is

69:03

some drama here ready

69:05

but this is

69:06

[Laughter]

69:08

well that would be talking positivity

69:10

saying that there we go you know that’ll

69:12

be toxic positivity saying that because

69:14

toxic positivity says it’s not okay to

69:16

get upset about anything yeah but you

69:18

know the the great loss for

69:21

the industry that you left is that they

69:24

had a leader in place that would have

69:26

been able to bring in a really beautiful

69:30

leadership style into an industry and

69:32

show people how to lead well and to lead

69:35

differently

69:38

i know but i’m upset about it now

69:41

oh my god

69:43

um

69:45

maybe i’ll get my together while we

69:46

listen to this bit from suzanne mercier

69:48

then

69:49

who helped us realise

69:51

that as leaders and managers we learn

69:53

from the style of those which we’ve

69:55

worked under

69:56

when i was about 17 and i was working in

69:59

an apartment store and there was the

70:01

after sales office and because of the

70:03

times that it was in the 80s there was

70:05

all women that worked in that office and

70:07

the woman who was in charge was someone

70:09

who was renowned for striking fear into

70:11

everybody and i was petrified her as

70:13

well because of everybody else’s opinion

70:14

and then she must have picked up on it

70:16

because she turned to me and said you’re

70:17

scared of me aren’t you wow and i looked

70:19

her in the eye i said no i’m not scared

70:21

of you and then continue with the

70:22

conversation and then she just softened

70:24

completely

70:25

so it seemed like that there was a wall

70:27

that she was putting up there because

70:29

she felt that she had to she was seen

70:30

for who she really was that she couldn’t

70:32

be an effective manager but she was the

70:34

loveliest person but nobody could see

70:36

past her her style of management because

70:39

that seemed to be what she felt she

70:41

needed to do well and often we learn our

70:43

style of management from the previous

70:44

manager that we worked with so if her

70:46

style of management was learned from a

70:48

male manager then that’s entirely you

70:51

know she thought she had to do that so

70:53

um yeah i can understand that and and

70:55

how perceptive of her that she

70:56

recognized it and changed what she was

70:58

doing with me not with anybody else

71:02

i cracked her oh there you go did anyone

71:05

else get the benefit of it possibly i

71:08

think we softened some things along the

71:09

way

71:10

well i think i think also people get

71:11

into you know management and leadership

71:13

roles and it takes them a while to find

71:16

their feet because that’s a whole new

71:17

game for them they’re in uncertain

71:18

territory and and often the way that we

71:21

handle uncertainty is to go into control

71:24

and to reduce our vulnerability we you

71:26

know we adapt or adopt certain behaviors

71:28

and and those sorts of things and they

71:30

certainly aren’t at least in that space

71:32

um you know particularly good for people

71:34

that are sort of in the in the role or

71:37

at the level that you were before or at

71:38

the level below you so yeah it’s an

71:40

interesting it’s just such a complex

71:42

area isn’t it i find it interesting that

71:44

people think that women are more

71:45

aggressive when they get to the top

71:47

because from my own experience i’ve had

71:50

quite a few

71:51

female managers and leaders and they

71:54

have by far been the best leaders that

71:55

i’ve had in my career well thank you

71:57

andy

72:00

i love that

72:01

[Laughter]

72:04

there’s that lovely expression that if

72:06

you if this miracle occurs within five

72:08

kilometers claim it

72:12

but i’ve always found that that women

72:14

actually bring a lot more of themselves

72:17

i tend to find leadership more natural

72:19

coming from women because they connect

72:21

more with people in my experience

72:23

whereas men tend to connect more with

72:26

the task yes well that that is in

72:28

general true i think that um i think

72:31

that there are a lot of men who are

72:33

starting to embrace the more feminine

72:35

side of leadership which is much more

72:37

concerned about people so there’s a lot

72:39

of good men out there wanting to find

72:40

that balance

72:42

but yeah i think that

72:43

there’s the old double standard that

72:45

what’s seen as assertive in a guy is

72:47

seen as aggressive in a woman and that’s

72:49

society if you ask women many of the

72:51

women have the same response so she’s

72:53

aggressive um but in actual fact she’s

72:55

just doing something that a guy would do

72:56

and it’s just seen very differently so

72:58

yeah i think we still got a lot of

72:59

unconscious bias to sort out no question

73:02

one of my earliest managing jobs because

73:04

i started managing people when i was 23

73:06

or so in the interview the

73:09

alpha douche that was the interviewer

73:12

specifically told me that if he gives

73:14

this job to a woman he doesn’t want to

73:16

pioneer i don’t want you to go out and

73:18

pioneer anything you know i want to give

73:20

this to somebody who’ll do the job right

73:22

and not make this all about being a

73:23

woman right further to that in roles

73:26

where i’ve been managing large teams of

73:28

people especially where people have been

73:30

older than me and with a lot of

73:31

experience i mean i think that imposter

73:34

syndrome has certainly crept in there

73:36

um because you know they’re more

73:37

experienced but that doesn’t necessarily

73:39

mean that they you know have more

73:41

creativity or the right perspective for

73:44

the job

73:45

but i i would say that as a 23 year old

73:48

doing that different than an almost 40

73:50

year old without this perspective

73:52

i felt like i had to mold myself to be

73:54

more of i suppose more of that masculine

73:57

energy in you know take that on so as

74:00

much as i want to take andy’s compliment

74:01

he was probably talking about somebody

74:03

else because

74:05

absolutely you know that

74:06

i’m a bit of a ball buster

74:10

because i think that in that i had to

74:12

harden myself

74:14

to compete on that level and i think

74:17

that was you know one of the things this

74:19

is turning into my therapy session but

74:21

one of the things that turned me away

74:23

from being a manager of a large group is

74:25

kind of

74:26

you know having those two masters having

74:27

all those people underneath you who you

74:29

as uh me as a woman wanted to lift up

74:32

and do the best for but then having

74:34

those masters above that saw them as

74:36

numbers on a spreadsheet

74:37

finding that balance i don’t think

74:39

there’s a question i think i’m just

74:41

venting that’s great you’re absolutely

74:42

right and um i think that what’s really

74:45

powerful of what about what you’ve just

74:46

said is that it it represents that there

74:49

are so many different styles of feminine

74:50

leadership there’s not one

74:52

and and you have to actually meet people

74:54

where they are to change the the um the

74:56

story anyway so that you can you know

74:59

share with them another way to do things

75:01

so i think that if you if you were to do

75:03

that you probably wouldn’t have got

75:04

ahead and i i think back on my career

75:07

and i don’t think that i had that

75:09

bolshee sort of approach and i i would

75:11

actually not put myself out there in

75:12

fact you know when i was in my early

75:14

days of running my own business i sort

75:16

of hoped that i’d planted the seeds and

75:17

they were all going to come to me so it

75:18

took me ages to get that i have to

75:20

actually put myself out there it wasn’t

75:22

comfortable at all so i think that

75:24

people who work inside the corporate

75:25

environment they have to be stronger

75:27

they have to actually you know be able

75:29

to stand up and and give an opinion and

75:32

you know play the game to some degree so

75:34

it doesn’t suit everybody you know it’s

75:36

just you’ve got to find your way in and

75:38

place to be a leader

75:40

i suppose the thing is we don’t want to

75:42

play by those rules anymore because look

75:43

what happens to us

75:45

well i mean to us to me personally if i

75:48

play by those rules because it ends up

75:51

with me burning out

75:53

and

75:54

getting depressed and having anxiety

75:57

attacks and feeling like i’m

75:59

compromising every inch of myself

76:02

to play in somebody else’s game who i

76:05

will never win and i can only shift the

76:08

needle ever so incrementally before

76:10

somebody else knocks the needle back

76:12

again yeah so we have a chance with what

76:15

we’re doing to step out of that mold and

76:17

create something for ourselves with our

76:20

rules our way

76:22

so what actually are those rules well

76:24

i’m glad you asked i don’t know either

76:26

you know and

76:28

this is the point of the story this is

76:30

you know harp time happening over 12

76:32

months ago

76:35

[Applause]

76:37

harking back to even i don’t know how

76:39

far we are into this episode at the

76:41

moment but right at the beginning with

76:43

our sketch

76:44

12 months ago i started saying something

76:47

to the effect of you know we don’t live

76:49

in a vacuum yes because it became very

76:51

clear to me at that point that you know

76:53

as much as we try to sanitize our

76:55

environments

76:56

you know as much as we build our echo

76:58

chambers to suit our own beliefs and our

77:00

values we’d line our little castles with

77:02

people who agree with us um sooner or

77:05

later we need to interact with the

77:06

outside world you know and on top of

77:08

that

77:09

different events that we face can also

77:11

trigger the same old feelings and

77:13

patterns of behavior how many times did

77:15

i say to you of a morning i’ve done some

77:16

journaling this morning

77:20

because something had come up that i

77:22

thought about with relation to my family

77:24

and i just i got it out but

77:26

you know as much as i tried to put on

77:28

that toxic positivity brave face and

77:30

said no all right yeah no i’m good i’m

77:31

like yeah yeah now time is past and

77:33

water under the bridge and blah blah

77:34

blah no no no

77:36

because

77:37

it’s not linear it’s cyclical it’s not

77:39

even cyclical it’s it’s i don’t know

77:41

what it is it’s it’s almost like that

77:43

multiverse kind of theory you can get

77:46

hit by it anywhere at any time

77:48

it’s a multiverse of trauma yeah exactly

77:51

a bit like grief you know like because

77:54

you know let’s not forget that during

77:55

that patch of time as well i was really

77:57

still

77:58

you know in early stages of grief around

78:01

losing my dad it was year in but still

78:04

grief has got no time no it’s great it

78:06

doesn’t expire it doesn’t start within a

78:08

certain time it doesn’t end within a

78:10

certain time in fact you know i

78:14

i still think about my mum who i lost

78:17

you know nine months after moving to

78:18

darwin and get emotional when i think

78:21

about her because i miss her

78:23

you know and i miss my dad and i miss

78:26

all of these people that

78:27

that were important to me when i was

78:29

growing up and are still important to me

78:31

but they’re not with me anymore yeah so

78:34

it’s not

78:35

something that just leaves us you know

78:37

seven-year-old me asked my grandmother

78:40

you know when are things going to get

78:41

back to normal this is after she’d lost

78:42

her daughter my auntie well nothing’s

78:44

going to get back to normal and

78:45

everyone’s going to be happy again and

78:47

her reaction was to my mum how do you

78:49

get this kid out of here he’s stupid or

78:51

whatever i didn’t know anything about

78:53

grief i didn’t know anything about death

78:55

i didn’t all i knew was that before i

78:57

was born my grandfather had died and

78:59

they all seemed pretty happy not that he

79:01

died but they all seemed to be getting

79:03

on life pretty well all i wanted to know

79:05

at that point was when things were going

79:06

to return to some sense of normality

79:08

much like people are saying now after

79:10

the pandemic when are we going to get

79:12

back to normal well things have changed

79:16

life changes and we need to be able to

79:18

adapt

79:19

grief is a part of that and in a lot of

79:21

ways

79:23

we don’t live in a vacuum we don’t live

79:24

in a vacuum we when we come to work we

79:27

bring all of those other things with us

79:29

oh bring your whole self to work like

79:31

the authenticity catchphrase says but

79:34

jeez if you think you you can show it if

79:36

you think you can actually say something

79:38

about it bring it by all means but don’t

79:40

do anything with it could you imagine if

79:41

um if we brought our whole selves to

79:43

work and instead of

79:45

us unleashing our trauma on this podcast

79:47

this is what we put on the radio

79:50

well i’ll tell you what i would make

79:51

some interesting headlines and we’ll

79:53

probably get like a good good

79:54

listenership of course you know we know

79:56

that people do like a bit of a salacious

79:58

conversation

79:59

salacious

80:00

i can’t imagine it would have gone down

80:02

with management maybe we can send that

80:04

out in the press release for this one

80:05

see if someone picks it up listen to two

80:07

former radio hosts cry about their life

80:12

all this discussion about work um not

80:15

our work now uh someone else’s work but

80:16

i think this is probably a really good

80:18

time to introduce jane madden board

80:20

member for the black dog institute and

80:21

chair for the fred hollows foundation

80:23

and with a public service career of at

80:26

least 30 years where she’s been in some

80:28

of the most senior levels of government

80:30

she knows a lot about mental health in

80:32

the workplace so how has the

80:34

conversation about mental health changed

80:36

in that time

80:37

i had a career in government for over 30

80:40

years before now working as a board

80:43

director and

80:44

also running my own advisory firm and

80:47

the conversations that we’re having in

80:49

mental health and as i said right across

80:50

different sectors are very different

80:52

than what they were five or ten years

80:54

ago i’ve had the opportunity of serving

80:56

on the black dog institute board for

80:58

almost seven years now and during that

81:00

time i think we’ve seen a really

81:02

increased awareness across workplaces

81:05

academic and

81:07

other educational institutions and even

81:10

the home

81:11

that um you know mental health can

81:13

affect everybody and in fact you know i

81:16

think the current uh levels are that you

81:18

know one in five australians will

81:20

experience some mental illness at some

81:22

point in their life so that it touches

81:24

each and every one of us and of course

81:27

without spending a large part of our

81:28

lives in the workplace it’s only natural

81:31

that there will be mental illness uh in

81:33

the workplace people do need to think

81:35

about their mental health uh both

81:37

amongst your colleagues amongst your

81:39

staff and especially if you’re a leader

81:41

so i do think that there’s been

81:43

increased awareness on the importance of

81:46

talking about mental health just as we

81:48

also talk about physical health and

81:50

occupational health and safety and the

81:53

conversations have i think fortunately

81:55

become less stigmatized than they used

81:58

to be do you think when it comes to

82:00

modern workplace leadership that part of

82:02

that role is also being a counsellor to

82:04

staff to some extent but i think there

82:07

also needs to be a recognition that a

82:10

mental illness is not something that can

82:13

be at times quickly fixed by counseling

82:16

staff you know you know sometimes i’ve

82:18

seen it in a brisk way like you know get

82:20

over it you know you’re just feeling

82:21

down get out of it

82:23

you know there will be times where yes

82:26

support in the workplace is necessary

82:28

but there will be times also where you

82:30

do need to you know seek professional

82:32

help because with appropriate treatment

82:34

it’s really important to know

82:36

that many people can and do recover from

82:40

mental health illness

82:42

it almost feels like that there needed

82:43

to be some kind of flash point to happen

82:45

for businesses to really take mental

82:47

health seriously and this is something

82:49

that our other guest today annie harvey

82:51

who is a patent interrupter for

82:53

workplaces has noticed across time as

82:55

well

82:56

it’s taken

82:57

a pandemic for companies to put

82:59

well-being mental health and well-being

83:01

at the top of their list to look after

83:04

employees and sometimes people just say

83:06

everything’s getting really serious can

83:08

we just have a bit of joy and can you do

83:10

a laughter session for us which is great

83:13

so annie works with adults and teens to

83:15

help them maximize well-being and

83:16

resilience and she shows people not only

83:19

how to be still just for a few moments

83:21

but also shares her own strategies to

83:23

prevent burnout she works as a keynote

83:25

speaker and runs workshops training in

83:26

one-to-one mentoring and coaching and

83:28

she refers to herself as a patent

83:30

interrupter so what does that mean

83:33

a stint last week for literally 10

83:34

minutes at a conference and there’d been

83:36

a lot of tears through some triggering

83:38

talks and quite often i’m kind of

83:40

brought on as a pattern interrupt at

83:42

conferences after

83:44

things that you know talks that might

83:46

upset people and i’m important to lift

83:48

the mood and still people were crying

83:51

but it was different kinds of tears it

83:53

was quite fascinating to watch room that

83:54

was within three or four minutes what do

83:56

you mean patent interrupt what’s um how

83:58

would you do

83:58

an interrupt so yeah sometimes i’ve just

84:01

been called that so it’s you know when

84:03

you when you are triggered an audience

84:05

is triggered or anyone is triggered by

84:07

something they’ve heard in a talk or on

84:09

the news or whatever

84:11

and i come in and i’m the patent

84:12

interrupter

84:14

to release that laughter really quickly

84:16

and that interrupts your stress response

84:18

and turns turns off your fight or flight

84:20

and turns on your

84:22

um relaxation response really

84:25

so it’s a yeah a bit of a circuit

84:26

breaker i guess you could call it i like

84:28

the idea of you like that’s your

84:30

official job title pattern interrupter

84:32

get it printed on a t-shirt it’s on a

84:34

hat all sorts of weird titles in this

84:36

job yeah annie the activator last week

84:40

so we’ve been talking a little bit about

84:41

burnout earlier in this episode and you

84:44

know we’ve all known someone if not

84:46

ourselves who has either burnt out or

84:48

got very close to that feeling of

84:49

burnout and i feel a lot like the onus

84:51

is often put onto employees for

84:53

self-care but it’s also up to employers

84:55

to provide an environment in which

84:57

burnout doesn’t take hold in the first

84:58

place so at this point we were curious

85:00

to know if jane madden had noticed any

85:02

changes in employer attitude to how

85:04

staff are treated in the workplace

85:06

have you seen much in the way of

85:08

workplaces and employers realizing that

85:11

sometimes their treatment of staff leads

85:13

to poor mental health oh this is a

85:15

tricky area yes there have been some

85:19

recognition of that and the use of

85:22

services like eap both in the public and

85:24

private sector are there so that people

85:27

who may be suffering from mental health

85:29

or need

85:30

you know a neutral or third party to

85:34

talk to

85:35

um can have the right conversations and

85:37

get the right sort of tools if you like

85:39

to manage their mental health and to

85:41

also sort of push back and if necessary

85:44

make legitimate complaints where there

85:46

is really egregious behavior uh

85:48

happening it’s not true to think that

85:51

people with a mental health issue or

85:53

illness can just pull themselves out of

85:55

it and certainly um in some workplaces

85:58

that notion of keeping a stiff upper lip

86:00

and never complaining i think affects

86:03

some people’s

86:04

mental health adversely and it’s good

86:06

that we are realizing you know the fact

86:09

and and fiction of some of these uh

86:13

myths i have noticed recently in some of

86:15

the workplaces that i’ve been in there’s

86:16

been a real shift around the approach to

86:19

what we used to call a sikhi to the

86:21

point where some leaders and managers

86:23

would say themselves that they sometimes

86:25

need a mental health day i wonder if

86:28

this kind of attitude has actually been

86:30

instrumental in helping us to reduce the

86:33

incidence of unplanned leave look um i

86:37

think that’s right andy i think a really

86:39

important thing to keep in mind is you

86:41

know majority of mental illness in the

86:42

workplace is treatable and in some cases

86:45

it is preventable so you know if you’ve

86:48

been really pushing the boat out on

86:51

heavy heavy workload um and you’re

86:53

feeling you know exhausted maybe a bit

86:55

fragile it’s much better to take that

86:58

mental health day than to have a need

87:01

later on you know take three or four

87:03

sick days each month for untreated

87:05

depression or nervous anxiety or nervous

87:08

exhaustion and i think having that

87:10

environment where you are you know

87:12

monitoring your own mental health but

87:14

also you have managers in a workplace

87:16

that’s supportive of people you know

87:18

taking the time as they need and perhaps

87:21

are amenable to people taking you know

87:23

that mental health day as you say it’s a

87:25

good thing and actually the company the

87:27

employer will benefit in the longer term

87:29

because you know it’s an old-fashioned

87:31

saying but there is that stitch in time

87:33

saves nine and it actually i think can

87:36

be relatable to giving ourselves you

87:38

know that sick day that rest day

87:40

permission to have down time uh

87:42

especially if you’ve been working hard

87:44

or you have other factors

87:46

responsibilities in your lives that are

87:49

really causing you a lot of pressure and

87:50

anxiety when it’s come to me leaving

87:52

workplaces it’s never been about the

87:54

money it’s been about the value that i

87:56

feel like um i have as a person if i

88:00

haven’t felt valued then or if i’ve seen

88:03

other people that i feel are treated um

88:05

differently then that’s been my reason

88:08

for doing something else yeah yeah and i

88:11

think the statistics would back you up

88:13

around that that uh you know it’s the

88:15

quality of you know one’s treatment that

88:17

is frequently cited by people you know

88:20

as the reason to leave an organization

88:23

it’s pretty easy for someone to say

88:25

they’re feeling burnt out but annie

88:26

harvey was able to give us a few

88:28

insights into not just what causes it

88:30

but how it manifests in the workplace

88:33

you said we don’t recognize the signs of

88:35

burnout what are they you don’t

88:37

recognize them at all do you reckon

88:38

you’ve ever been in that space oh 100

88:40

percent but

88:43

you said we often don’t um recognize

88:45

them i suppose we recognize it when

88:48

we’ve hit the wall at the end and it’s

88:49

all too hard and we quit the job

88:51

um

88:52

but maybe there are some signs earlier

88:54

on that might be good for us to know

88:56

about

88:57

also

88:58

if you i mean the world health

89:00

organization a couple of years ago um

89:03

basically said that

89:05

burnout is a syndrome and it results

89:07

from

89:08

chronic workplace stress over a period

89:10

of time that hasn’t been successfully

89:11

managed now obviously it’s not just

89:12

about workplace stress we bring all our

89:15

other stresses into our workplace

89:18

but they give us three things to look

89:19

out for you kind of have to have all

89:21

three so one of them is emotional

89:22

exhaustion or sometimes i call that the

89:24

sunday night feeling

89:26

but you have to have it regularly it’s

89:28

not like a one-off and then attached to

89:30

that is cynicism about you know your job

89:33

or your family or your work colleagues

89:35

or whatever

89:36

and then the third thing to have on top

89:38

of that is what they call reduced

89:40

self-efficacy which is

89:44

a reduced belief in you being competent

89:46

in doing your job basically

89:48

and if you have all three

89:50

in theory you’re you’re on a journey to

89:52

burning out if you’re not already there

89:55

does that make sense yeah and i hadn’t

89:57

actually thought of burnout as being i

89:59

suppose a um

90:00

a medical term i i thought it was just

90:03

being that emotional feeling but um now

90:07

you define it like that i can definitely

90:09

say that i’ve experienced those three in

90:12

uh situations where uh

90:15

it didn’t take much longer than the

90:17

starts of those feelings to you know it

90:19

was all too hard

90:20

exactly yeah and i think you know i

90:22

think it’s really critical that

90:24

people know how close they are to you

90:26

know what we call falling off the cliff

90:27

because once you fall off once you’re

90:29

burnt out

90:30

it takes a really long time to heal it’s

90:32

not like you know bouncing back as we

90:34

like to call it after a couple of weeks

90:36

it can take

90:37

six months or even up to two years to

90:39

actually heal from that so i think it’s

90:42

great that the

90:43

world health organization have kind of

90:44

put it on the map for us and recognize

90:46

it as a syndrome

90:48

i know i’ve walked the cliff face of

90:50

burnout many times throughout my career

90:52

and from earlier in the episode it

90:54

certainly sounds like i fell off the

90:55

cliff

90:57

that’s not to say though that all

90:58

businesses are doing a bad job no no not

91:00

at all i mean i’ve worked with some

91:01

really great businesses who put

91:03

incentives and activities in place

91:05

to improve staff well-being we do have

91:07

some doubts though about sometimes

91:09

whether the tactics that employers put

91:11

in are tone deaf we’ve explored that

91:13

with jane madden

91:14

i’m thinking there’s also a level of

91:16

risk with some of the ways that some

91:18

companies actually do try to promote a

91:20

good culture i’m thinking of a

91:22

particular example where a company that

91:24

had a mandated day every month where

91:26

they had cake for everybody and then

91:28

every now and then they decided they

91:29

might actually donate the proceeds of

91:31

that to a charity or for one reason or

91:34

other it didn’t happen but then when it

91:35

didn’t happen that actually bred

91:37

suspicion amongst them yeah and it’s

91:39

funny because as i said that that mark

91:42

of integrity to say that you’ll do

91:44

something and then not to follow through

91:46

it makes people you know not have the

91:48

trust in their team leaders in their

91:51

executives and it may only be a small

91:53

thing but people do have to deliver what

91:55

they say they do and quite quickly trust

91:57

can break down it can take a long time

91:59

to build but it can you know quite

92:02

quickly uh uh break down and even

92:05

schools like you know harvard business

92:06

school are talking about you know the

92:08

absolute criticality of authentic

92:11

leadership and having you know people

92:14

committed to saying what they’re doing

92:15

and working according to

92:18

how they say they’re going to work and

92:19

then if it’s not happening reporting and

92:21

that honesty that integrity

92:24

is important even though it might be uh

92:26

bearing get bad news or acknowledging

92:29

that you haven’t been able to meet you

92:30

know ambitious targets that boards or

92:33

the company had set it kind of feels

92:35

like we need to focus more on the

92:36

quality of relationships rather than

92:38

giving people things and those things

92:40

will happen more naturally if the

92:41

relationships are good yeah there’s a

92:43

really interesting debate waging at the

92:45

moment about how important you know

92:47

performance bonuses and remuneration and

92:50

i know from some of the surveys i’ve

92:53

seen that particularly in the last 12

92:55

months with what we’ve gone through with

92:57

coronavirus is people realize money

93:00

you know a certain amount is certainly

93:02

necessary but it doesn’t necessarily buy

93:03

your happiness and if you’re feeling you

93:05

know you’ve got flexibility with your

93:07

workplace that your you know

93:09

contribution is valued you’re respected

93:11

by colleagues they’re also respectful of

93:13

you know other pressures upon you

93:16

these things you know you have a much

93:17

better monetary uh

93:19

reward than

93:21

you know she had dollars and cents

93:23

uh and so that it’s entered a new phase

93:26

i think with uh what what workplaces

93:28

have done uh in the last uh 12 to 18

93:31

months and the future of the workplace

93:32

is really really changing you know that

93:35

presenteeism just being there and

93:37

turning up is you know so much less

93:39

important now people are looking to see

93:42

what the real contribution of people are

93:44

when they’re not actually in the same

93:46

physical location offices in australia

93:48

aren’t going to be the same uh as they

93:50

were before covert people are coming in

93:53

not just not to work because they can

93:55

work anywhere they’re coming in um you

93:58

know to collaborate so meeting spaces

94:00

are more important and the second reason

94:02

that i hear people are coming in is to

94:04

for all those cultural reasons you know

94:06

to connect with their colleagues to see

94:08

each other to have a sense that they’re

94:10

working as part of a team not just you

94:12

know in isolated studies and bedrooms

94:14

across the country um and i think that’s

94:17

changing you know the way organizations

94:19

will function going forward and the way

94:22

organizations will also treat uh

94:24

employees but i think it can be a new

94:27

normal that will be better both for

94:29

mental health and hopefully for

94:31

organizational culture generally so what

94:33

are the hallmarks of some of the better

94:35

cultures out there that you’ve seen the

94:36

standout characteristic uh to me is uh

94:39

integrity in the workplace so to have

94:42

ceos and executives saying they would

94:45

like to have this type of culture and

94:46

then not modeling or being authentic

94:49

themselves with regard to it so

94:52

if you have authentic leadership if you

94:56

have a culture that i said

94:58

earlier is respectful is you know

95:00

supportive of employees as individuals

95:03

makes everyone feel you know valued

95:06

their respective roles in an

95:08

organization you’ll find that it’s a

95:09

happier workplace it’s a more positive

95:11

culture and the results

95:14

will be higher too

95:16

burnout is a pretty big pain point for

95:18

businesses throughout the country

95:19

without much consensus on how to

95:21

approach it

95:22

i saw um

95:24

the stats i think said what we lose 33

95:26

billion dollars to burn out i’m i’m

95:28

going off the top of my head there is

95:30

that close to what it is well i would

95:31

think it would be a lot more across the

95:33

world at the moment yeah good point and

95:35

certainly in the next 18 months two

95:37

years i reckon so how can workplaces

95:39

kind of combat that then i mean if if

95:42

the way that we treat employees

95:44

heads them in that direction and then

95:45

it’s i mean not only bad for mental

95:47

health but bad for their bottom line

95:49

yeah absolutely i think um you know we

95:51

live in a bit of a blame society and

95:53

quite often as if we’re employed we

95:56

would blame the company for our work

95:59

hours and lack of balance and all that

96:01

kind of thing but where i sit is where

96:03

you can take responsibility i mean yes

96:05

it’s definitely down to the company

96:07

with regards to having all the processes

96:09

and policies in place certainly

96:11

supporting people who have serious

96:13

mental illness but i kind of sit in the

96:15

the prevention side i guess people being

96:17

proactive and and education because so

96:20

many people don’t even know some of the

96:22

signs of burnout i guess um

96:24

and then how they can put some really

96:26

simple

96:27

strategies and that’s really where i

96:29

come from is simple that they can walk

96:31

out the door and put into practice in

96:33

their life pretty quickly but yeah it’s

96:35

it’s a really big thing and also i talk

96:37

about we’ve heard a lot about

96:38

absenteeism and we can measure that but

96:40

there’s lots of

96:42

presenteeism and i would definitely have

96:44

been guilty of that even potentially

96:46

when i was a schoolteacher

96:48

10 years ago

96:49

was you know you’re kind of there but

96:50

the lights aren’t on kind of thing if

96:53

you know what i mean

96:55

that’s a term that i um i was really

96:57

struck by when we were reading through

96:59

some of the research this concept of

97:01

presenteeism do we need to sort of take

97:03

a step back and learn how to actually be

97:07

be more relaxed do we need to look after

97:09

ourselves better in the workplace yeah

97:11

absolutely and i think you know

97:13

sometimes i do a presentation called

97:15

it’s not bubbles and band-aids so a lot

97:18

of people will say well i look after my

97:20

well-being i have my regular massage and

97:23

i have bubbles with my friends at the

97:24

weekend or i have a bubble bath and i’m

97:26

not telling people to stop any of that

97:28

but i think that’s often a band-aid it’s

97:31

a short-term strategy and we need to

97:33

looking at within businesses and without

97:34

with ourselves how we can have a

97:36

long-term strategy for how we look after

97:38

ourselves and it’s it’s the age-old

97:40

thing of you know if we could fly

97:42

anywhere at the moment safely

97:44

we’d be told to put our oxygen mask on

97:46

first before helping others and i’ve

97:48

only got to this space of teaching

97:50

people this because i didn’t used to do

97:52

that i would never you know we put

97:54

ourselves at the bottom of the list and

97:55

it’s only through learning the hard way

97:57

that i’ve climbed back out up up to the

97:59

top of the cliff and now teaching people

98:01

how to do that or the signs if nothing

98:03

else i like this idea of keeping the

98:04

bubble bars in the mix but what are some

98:06

of the other things that we could

98:08

benefit from looking at when i look at

98:10

self-care um you know we all have we all

98:12

know what our own individual self-care

98:14

strategies might be but i’ve i try to

98:17

think about things that maybe people

98:18

can’t google so i look at what healthy

98:21

relationships are jim rohn once famously

98:24

said with we’re the average of the five

98:25

people we spend most time with

98:28

so if you if you just count that on your

98:30

hand and you two might have to include

98:31

your cats in that as well yeah

98:34

there’s a bit of laziness going on there

98:35

there’s a lot of destruction going on in

98:37

my house

98:39

um and then you’re you know you’re the

98:40

average of those five people so if you

98:42

wanted to in if you want to start

98:44

looking after yourself or i know

98:46

learning a new skill practicing

98:47

meditation or learning how to swim or

98:49

whatever it is or going on a particular

98:51

diet you don’t a lot you don’t marry

98:54

condo those people and ditch them out of

98:56

your lives but you start bringing people

98:58

into your circle of influence that can

99:00

raise that average because we all know

99:02

those people that don’t encourage us to

99:04

do that necessarily and i think when

99:06

we’re sick or we’re not feeling great we

99:08

don’t necessarily hang around with the

99:10

right people or the right strategies so

99:12

it’s not just people it’s books and

99:14

podcasts like this all sorts of things

99:16

that you can raise your average in

99:18

depending on how you’re going to look

99:20

after yourself

99:21

so just like sally goldner told us in

99:22

the last episode one of the best ways to

99:24

avoid burnout is to make sure that

99:26

workplace values align authentically

99:29

with the values of those working in the

99:30

business it’s not always going to be a

99:32

perfect fit though you know let’s be

99:33

honest we know from our conversations

99:35

with suzanne and hugh that perfection is

99:38

you know and it’s an elusive beast so

99:40

for those times when imperfection

99:42

pinches us we wanted to know what kind

99:44

of resources are available like what

99:46

would someone like jane madden do

99:48

what are some of the tools that are

99:49

available to help people in the

99:50

workplace with that there’s a lot of

99:53

online tools now certainly most of the

99:55

organizations have through googling like

99:58

dog institute mental health workplace or

100:00

any of the other major organizations

100:03

there’s a lot of videos that give

100:04

real-life depictions about scenarios

100:07

that have played out you know

100:09

there are some responsibilities

100:11

individually if you really your mental

100:14

health condition is impairing your

100:16

ability to do any requirements of your

100:19

job you might be able to get some

100:20

reasonable adjustments that help you

100:22

perform your role but it may be that you

100:25

also are impairing the team affecting

100:28

others and there is i think now a

100:31

requirement that with insurance company

100:33

that if you don’t disclose a mental

100:35

illness it can disentitle someone from

100:37

workers compensation you know should

100:39

they suffer major exacerbation of a

100:42

mental health illness so i think one

100:43

needs to sort of be brave to have some

100:46

of those discussions and to talk about

100:49

what is possible and it’s good that

100:51

we’ve got anonymous tools that gives us

100:54

ways to start the conversation no matter

100:56

how difficult it may be and i think the

100:59

one thing that i just want to remind you

101:01

of listeners is that it isn’t something

101:03

that is off to the side and something

101:05

that people you know can’t talk about it

101:08

affects so many of us and will affect so

101:10

many of us in our life there’s virtually

101:12

no one i know in all my different roles

101:14

that hasn’t either got themselves a

101:16

mental health problem or had one or had

101:19

family members we’re all touched by it

101:21

and we just sometimes need to sort of

101:24

take those first steps and you may be

101:25

surprised to find you know your manager

101:27

or your colleagues actually may well be

101:30

much more sympathetic and understanding

101:32

than sometimes you fear they might be

101:34

it’s been a bit of a stroll to make this

101:36

episode’s point

101:38

this has been a long walk do i need the

101:40

harp again

101:41

hang on we got if we got a flashback to

101:43

an earlier episode

101:48

this heart sound effect was worth its

101:50

money which was nothing i didn’t pay for

101:52

it it came with a road caster oh you

101:54

know what if this had been an actual

101:56

walk i think i would have burnt off at

101:58

least a mars bar by now it’s been a

101:59

pretty long stroll as long as it wasn’t

102:01

upstairs because gays don’t walk

102:02

upstairs i’ve heard correct exactly

102:04

we’re too lazy

102:07

um hugh kearns though back to hugh

102:09

kearns yeah yeah he made a really great

102:11

point about creating something new and

102:13

how we louise to find success for us is

102:16

it just about the money apparently not

102:18

or we’d have more um or is it about

102:20

being able to live our authentic values

102:23

while holding a space

102:25

where we and those that we work with can

102:27

look after ourselves

102:29

it kind of feels like culturally we’ve

102:31

kind of had a bit of a shift in the

102:32

definition of success as well because

102:34

when thinking back to the last olympic

102:36

games our medalists would get bronze but

102:39

they were being described as failures

102:42

through a lot of the media for not

102:43

getting gold do we need to have a bit of

102:45

a look at ourselves and and back off

102:47

well again yeah that comes back to the

102:49

expectations doesn’t it you know like in

102:51

what people expect of it and again

102:53

australia was having a fairly good run

102:55

for a while you think that’s what we

102:56

should have all the time and but that’s

102:58

probably not realistic either is you

102:59

know

103:01

for australia doing well you know all

103:03

the other countries are trying as hard

103:04

as well you know they’re just not

103:05

backing off and so they’re trying as

103:06

well and so it’s unrealistic to expect

103:08

you should win all the time you know why

103:10

why wouldn’t other people win

103:11

occasionally and so that’s that

103:13

expectations thing and that’s when yeah

103:14

sometimes you just have to realize no

103:16

this was the best we could do right now

103:18

that would be lovely to win but not

103:20

everyone’s going to win and people have

103:22

to learn how to cope with not winning

103:24

and other people winning and cope with

103:26

that because if only the winners can be

103:28

happy that means there’s an awful lot of

103:29

people who are going to be pretty

103:30

miserable in the world and so you have

103:31

to accept that people do the best they

103:33

can sometimes win songs lose you have to

103:36

go with that and again that’s when i

103:37

sort of get annoyed people think winning

103:38

is all that matters well that’s a fairly

103:41

limited sort of view of the world what

103:43

about all the other people sometimes you

103:44

do your best and sometimes it doesn’t

103:46

work out for a variety of reasons

103:48

okay now i mean

103:50

it only feels like i’m being slightly

103:51

attacked now um which is good

103:54

but it’s true yeah we love you

103:57

it’s true though like not everyone can

103:59

win a trophy yeah it doesn’t mean that

104:00

we can’t be happy with our slice of the

104:02

pie though we just need to get out of

104:04

our own way and cut ourselves a nice

104:06

slice

104:07

that’s an analogy i can get behind

104:08

unlike your second-hand chairs from the

104:12

from the second-hand chairs behind the

104:14

line in the sand what the macaroon is

104:16

it’s your second hand i’ve never heard

104:18

that before are you just making up

104:20

analogies

104:21

yeah

104:22

i love making up analogies

104:25

there are probably a few people are a

104:26

very small number of you who have a

104:28

fairly accurate view of themselves which

104:30

is i’m not the best i’m not the worst

104:32

i’m just doing what i can hear you know

104:33

this is okay and don’t spend too much

104:36

time doubting themselves they just go

104:37

look let’s get on with it and that’s

104:38

probably a fairly functional way to

104:39

behave really which is yeah look i’ll do

104:41

what i can

104:42

and we’ll cope with that as it comes out

104:44

but not so much worried about how other

104:46

people feel me or see me however that’s

104:48

that’s a fairly small number of people

104:50

really i think who are in that category

104:51

and for the rest of us and myself

104:53

included it’s come to terms with this is

104:55

a fairly normal thing in life that

104:57

questioning process and then get on with

104:59

things

105:00

and there’s something else that really

105:02

stuck with us the last time we spoke to

105:03

hugh

105:04

so is it useful then to kind of have a

105:06

bit of a look at who the best judge of

105:08

what failure is maybe it’s a bit of a

105:10

clumsy way of putting it but worst case

105:12

scenario if this project fails and we

105:14

don’t make money then worst case

105:16

scenario is the bank would foreclose

105:18

homelessness that kind of thing and the

105:20

realistic nature of those sorts of

105:22

things

105:23

for anybody in life it’s probably good

105:25

to have a plan b you know like let’s say

105:27

we do this thing what if it doesn’t work

105:29

well actually i have another fallback

105:30

position i can do something else we can

105:32

get our money whatever because

105:35

if there’s no plan b like if you take a

105:36

risk and the whole thing falls apart

105:38

that there’s a lot of pressure on at

105:39

that point and it comes some sense of

105:41

pressure is good it makes it work but

105:42

also it’s a bit scary and so then you

105:45

are will you take a risk will you do

105:46

things because this could be this could

105:48

be the end of the world so my view is

105:49

it’s probably good to have a plan b

105:51

which is well if that doesn’t work we

105:53

can manage another way it might not be

105:55

the best but we can manage it in some

105:56

way so if this fails well hang on

105:58

we have something else we can fall back

106:00

on along that way

106:01

instead of failure the way i view it

106:04

let’s say you do something new uh if it

106:06

doesn’t work okay it wasn’t what we

106:07

expected but we can do something else

106:09

with it or we can read we can reimagine

106:10

it or see it in a different way or

106:12

something like that right rather failure

106:14

the failure word i suppose tends to be a

106:16

final failure there is no come back from

106:18

it like it is the end is doomed and

106:20

generally life isn’t like that you know

106:22

if this doesn’t work yeah well we can do

106:23

something else and we’ll have a plan b

106:25

here we’ll work our way around that sort

106:26

of thing and i suppose that’s where a

106:28

more sensible approach would be is yeah

106:30

give it your best shot but realize if it

106:32

doesn’t work there’ll be something else

106:33

if you’re doubting yourself or you feel

106:35

like an imposter every now and again

106:36

welcome to the human race there’s

106:38

nothing wrong with you this is a normal

106:40

enough feeling every now and again to

106:41

have that thing but then don’t let it

106:43

stop you doing things don’t stop you

106:44

doing the things you enjoy doing and do

106:46

them because you want to do them i think

106:47

that’s the sort of summary is this is

106:49

this is a fairly normal thing and get on

106:51

with things and try out the things you

106:53

like doing and enjoy

106:54

so

106:55

here’s the next uncomfortable question

106:59

did we need more uncomfortable questions

107:01

in this episode

107:03

haven’t we all had enough

107:06

i think there’s going to be a few more

107:07

this is episode 11 out of 42 anyway

107:10

why am i still paying for therapy then i

107:13

don’t know i don’t know

107:14

i don’t know um but the question the

107:17

next uncomfortable question you ready

107:18

for it

107:19

how do we plan for the worst case

107:21

scenario

107:22

next time on reframe of mind we’ll speak

107:25

to derek mcmanus who has turned his

107:27

near-death experience in the line of

107:29

duty into a durability model of strength

107:32

and when we’re stepping into an unknown

107:33

territory what do we need to look at

107:36

my perspective to this overall is i went

107:38

to work i got shot i fell down i got up

107:40

i got better i went back to work i made

107:42

a choice to become a policeman i became

107:45

a sniper i became an underwater recovery

107:48

diver which is very dangerous in his own

107:50

realm i went away and trained with the

107:52

sas and counter terrorism i knew that

107:55

that job that i was choosing to do was

107:57

dangerous so i had to take a very close

107:59

look at the choices that i was making

108:01

and the possible consequences of that if

108:04

you’re concerned about yourself or

108:05

someone you know please seek

108:06

professional advice and support you can

108:09

contact beyond blue on 1300 224 636 or

108:13

at beyondblue.org dot a u or you can

108:16

contact lifeline on thirteen eleven

108:18

fourteen or lifeline.org dot a u more

108:21

resources can be found on our website

108:24

you’ve been hearing our story now we

108:26

really wanna hear yours connect with at

108:28

reframeofmind on instagram facebook

108:30

tiktok and twitter or connect with at

108:32

welcome change media on linkedin you can

108:34

also contact us via

108:36

reframeofmind.com.u with your stories or

108:38

suggestions for future topics we’d like

108:41

to thank today’s guests for sharing

108:42

their personal stories and insights and

108:44

for more information on any of the

108:45

subjects guests or references used in

108:48

this episode please see our show notes

108:50

or reframeofmind.com.edu

108:52

reframe of mind is a welcome change

108:54

media production

108:56

[Music]

109:00

how many people have picked their nose

109:02

listening to me i wonder

109:04

i’m sure they’ve done a lot of things

109:05

listening to you in the in the prisons i

109:08

used to

109:09

i told you i used to get faxes from the

109:10

prisons occasionally no yeah really

109:13

there were stories around that sometimes

109:15

prisoners tried to request songs to talk

109:17

to other people through song come on

109:19

eileen is not a request for the song

109:22

it’s code for something else looking out

109:24

my back door

109:26

is

109:28

got one hand in my pocket um

109:30

[Laughter]

109:33

jailbreak by hctc and tonight tonight by

109:36

the smashing pumpkins

109:40

[Applause]

109:41

[Music]

 

 

Check out some of our other guests who appear throughout Reframe of Mind: